Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Notwithstanding, your statement was demonstrably and scripturally false. While I believe more is determined than you, my argument had nothing to do with determinism; rather, it was simply scriptural.

Apparently you can't see your lens that you think makes you more scriptural than others.
Here's how this goes: I start discussing Scripture with you > ask you for more explanation > you start asking questions to try to lead me where you want me to go because you think you're my teacher > I try to stick with Scripture and get more deeply into it > you say 'Grace and Peace' and depart.
It's just a Lucy and the football process with you.
Not interested in determinism or your processes.

 

[Toknow]

Cherry pick scripture again. …

Matthew 12: 36 & 37
But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

You REALLY DO need to start understanding the bible you're reading.

Read Matthew 12:36-37 af few times until you understand what it means.

And YOU want to teach ME??

 

[sawdust]

Discussion in context - can believers decide to walk away from God and will God honor their choice.

Unbelievers have chosen condemnation and destruction - God honors their choce.

I realise what the context was. To reject the Lord is evil which, is why those who do, end up in the lake of fire.

If unbelievers actually believed God was telling the truth, they would not have rejected Him. They have not chosen destruction, they thought God was lying. When they are destroyed, God is honouring His own word on the matter. It is the Lord's "I told you so" moment.

As far as believers are concerned, the question truly is "can they walk away?" And it has nothing to do with God honouring their choice. How many testimonies have you heard that begin with words to the effect of "I thought I was a Christian". I have lost count. Christ is not a theology or a set of ideas or a good works program, He is a person to whom we relate. Too many who "sit in the pews" have no idea who Christ really is or what He has done.

I know quite a few who have walked away from the Church or their concept of Christianity but I have never met anyone who truly knew the Lord and walked away and effectively lost their salvation.

The scripture writers quite often speak of the security we have within the context of if you belong to Christ. In other words, first check to see if you really are in the faith and not deceiving yourself. If you do belong, then the Lord has made some very significant changes in you that require something far more powerful than man's will to overcome and the Lord does not disown His children like fickle humans do no matter how naughty they get. They will be disciplined, severely if necessary.

You should also understand that God does override man's will in certain cases, Balaam being one example.

So, does God honour man's choices? No, He is sovereign and whether men like it or not, want it or not, agree with it or not, His will shall prevail. We are saved because the Lord decided to save believers not because we decided to believe. If the gain is based on the Lord's will, then any loss will be on the same basis and not on human will.

 

[studier]

Gideon...
You think I have something to learn from you???
Yeah. Time to get off this demon-possessed thread.

Disappointed to see you go, but completely understood.
It is interesting to ponder where belief apart from submission is found.

 

[Kroogz]

You're very emotional about this topic and not presenting much of any meat you think you have.

No meat can be presented @studier. The BASICS are being denied.


NEVER PERISH. NO CONDEMNATION. IMPERISHABLE SEED. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST. WE HAVE BEEN SEALED WITH THE SAME SEAL AS THE SON. WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. WE HAVE A FOREVER ADVOCATE........


2+2=4. If the basics are being denied, trigonometry cannot be presented.

 

[Toknow]

We have some reformed/calvinists here and they don't even know it.....

 

[Toknow]

Disappointed to see you go, but completely understood.
It is interesting to ponder where belief apart from submission is found.

Will be back only to reply to a very select few.

Others don't have enough grey matter with which to engage.
And their behavior towards me is causing them to sin.

Of course, they don't think they're sinning.
And even if they are...
all good.
Jesus is happy with them anyway.

 

[Cameron143]

Apparently you can't see your lens that you think makes you more scriptural than others.
Here's how this goes: I start discussing Scripture with you > ask you for more explanation > you start asking questions to try to lead me where you want me to go because you think you're my teacher > I try to stick with Scripture and get more deeply into it > you say 'Grace and Peace' and depart.
It's just a Lucy and the football process with you.
Not interested in determinism or your processes.

Wow. Little if anything you have described has been the substance of our current discussion. You made a patently false statement which I refuted with scripture, as did @Kroogz.

And I would never assume to teach anyone. I simply wait for where I see God at work and join Him in it. Our discussions haven't proven to be of such a character. When this becomes apparent, I generally try to bow out of such communications graciously. Perhaps this discussion has followed the way of those previous to it.

 

[Toknow]

Disappointed to see you go, but completely understood.
It is interesting to ponder where belief apart from submission is found.

Do you know what ISLAM means?
It means submission....
At least they still believe it.

The Christian religion has also always taught that we are to submit ourselves to God and His will.
Jesus said this in Matthew 7....THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WILL ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

What has changed, I wonder.

Paul said that we are to be transformed in mind,
so that we can know what the will of God is...
what is good and acceptable.

I don't see much transformation on this thread.......
from those that claim to understand scripture.

 

[Kroogz]

Yeah. Time to get off this demon-possessed thread.

Demon possessed? Believers cannot be demon possessed.......Influenced, but not possessed.

And Good riddance, one less demon influenced believer on this thread will do it good.

 

[studier]

If unbelievers actually believed God was telling the truth, they would not have rejected Him. They have not chosen destruction, they thought God was lying. When they are destroyed, God is honouring His own word on the matter. It is the Lord's "I told you so" moment.

Whatever they thought and for whatever reason they will have chosen their destiny.

Rom1 tells me those in context know sufficiently who He is and inherently know His requirements of righteousness but see no value in having Him in epignosis - which is knowledge we actually live by. This is far from thinking He's lying.

As far as believers are concerned, the question truly is "can they walk away?" And it has nothing to do with God honouring their choice. How many testimonies have you heard that begin with words to the effect of "I thought I was a Christian". I have lost count. Christ is not a theology or a set of ideas or a good works program, He is a person to whom we relate. Too many who "sit in the pews" have no idea who Christ really is or what He has done.

Of course can they walk away has to do with God honoring their choice. That's part of the discussion - does He overrule volition.

I think many in pews have heard what He's done. It's not as if His death and resurrection is a secret these days, especially in churches. What does seem to be a secret is what "Christ" means and that it's a title of absolute authority in heaven on earth and to Him all knees shall bow. I almost hate to keep informing, but the referents "Christ" and "God" to us automatically mean submission to authority to us, which is just another phrase for obedience and biblically faith-obedience. This foundational and when I was teaching I had to orient some to this foundation because they'd never been taught it.

I know quite a few who have walked away from the Church or their concept of Christianity but I have never met anyone who truly knew the Lord and walked away and effectively lost their salvation.

How do you know what they knew and didn't know? I spent a few hours with a guy deeply involved in his church for years, knew a lot of the Bible and all about Jesus and who He is and what He's done, claimed belief in Him held for years, known in the community for his 'faith', worked in service at his church, and came to the point where he decided it wasn't for him. Nothing I said could poke holes in his thinking. I'm not his judge. At that time he was done and adamant about it.

The scripture writers quite often speak of the security we have within the context of if you belong to Christ. In other words, first check to see if you really are in the faith and not deceiving yourself. If you do belong, then the Lord has made some very significant changes in you that require something far more powerful than man's will to overcome and the Lord does not disown His children like fickle humans do no matter how naughty they get. They will be disciplined, severely if necessary.

You should also understand that God does override man's will in certain cases, Balaam being one example.

So, does God honour man's choices? No, He is sovereign and whether men like it or not, want it or not, agree with it or not, His will shall prevail. We are saved because the Lord decided to save believers not because we decided to believe. If the gain is based on the Lord's will, then any loss will be on the same basis and not on human will.

Pardon me, but skimming and answering in brief. If you want me to focus on something, let me know.

I think we both can draw on Scripture. I agree that in some cases God does do certain things differently, in Balaam's case using a creature. When people get too strict about what God does and doesn't do I at times bring up John the Baptist and ask if we think he could have chosen to be other than he was.

We disagree. God does honor man's will. He has seemingly always honored the will of His volitional creatures and if you study with @Kroogz, the angelic conflict comes into play and what man is volitionally proving about volitional faith-obedience-love. For whatever reason volition has resulted in rebellion from the angelic realm and into ours. It seems important to God to honor volition. He must have His reasons.

God's will prevailing does not preclude Him honoring men's will, but includes it. And He decided to save believers who decide to believe when He makes clear to them the facts He deems necessary. And IMO and read of Scripture that believing equates to willingly abiding faith-obedience-love...

 

[studier]

No meat can be presented @studier. The BASICS are being denied.


NEVER PERISH. NO CONDEMNATION. IMPERISHABLE SEED. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST. WE HAVE BEEN SEALED WITH THE SAME SEAL AS THE SON. WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. WE HAVE A FOREVER ADVOCATE........


2+2=4. If the basics are being denied, trigonometry cannot be presented.

Maybe you don't have what you think you have - meat or trig.
Your capitalized words are just words apart from context and explanation FROM Scripture.

 

[studier]

Wow. Little if anything you have described has been the substance of our current discussion. You made a patently false statement which I refuted with scripture, as did @Kroogz.

And I would never assume to teach anyone. I simply wait for where I see God at work and join Him in it. Our discussions haven't proven to be of such a character. When this becomes apparent, I generally try to bow out of such communications graciously. Perhaps this discussion has followed the way of those previous to it.

That's your subjective lens speaking again. It seems to filter Scripture and personal perceptions.
No 'perhaps'.
Grace and Peace.

 

[Cameron143]

That's your subjective lens speaking again. It seems to filter Scripture and personal perceptions.
No 'perhaps'.
Grace and Peace.

Grace and peace.

 

[Kroogz]

Maybe you don't have what you think you have - meat or trig.
Your capitalized words are just words apart from context and explanation FROM Scripture.

@studier with all of your "studies" and all of your study materials, sites and books..........You can never deal will NEVER PERISH. SEALED. IMPERISHABLE SEED. FOREVER ADVOCATE. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM HIS LOVE......And many more.

You don't even pit scripture with scripture, you totally ignore the OBVIOUS.

A little jealous of the teacher you should have stuck with?

Publications | R.B. Thieme Jr. Bible Ministries

Explore Bible books, eBooks, and audiobooks from R.B. Thieme Jr. Bible Ministries covering doctrine and Scripture.

rbthieme.org

 

[HeIsHere]

Jesus said this in Matthew 7....THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WILL ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

The will of the Father is to accept the gift of salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

The will of the Father is to accept the gift of salvation.

John 6:40~~For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The loss of salvation crowd makes the verse say "might have eternal life and might get raised up."

 

[studier]

@studier with all of your "studies" and all of your study materials, sites and books..........You can never deal will NEVER PERISH. SEALED. IMPERISHABLE SEED. FOREVER ADVOCATE. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM HIS LOVE......And many more.

You don't even pit scripture with scripture, you totally ignore the OBVIOUS.

A little jealous of the teacher you should have stuck with?

Publications | R.B. Thieme Jr. Bible Ministries

Explore Bible books, eBooks, and audiobooks from R.B. Thieme Jr. Bible Ministries covering doctrine and Scripture.

rbthieme.org

@Kroogz, you only allege that I can't deal with those things. You wouldn't know because you don't have the ability to test me. Also, you may have missed that I remain open to being convinced FROM Scripture, meaning exegetical work that you are not capable of doing. And I have even dropped mentions of some things that I think are potentially some key areas to look more deeply at than are typically done here. But participants such as yourself who are so sensitive to this topic don't pick up those mentions and get into them.

Thanks for the link. You know I know it. Jealousy is a silly thing to throw out. One would think meat-eaters like yourself would be well past such tactics and behaviors.

 

[studier]

The will of the Father is to accept the gift of salvation.

Fits the soteriology but there's probably more to it.

 

[Kroogz]

@Kroogz, you only allege that I can't deal with those things.

Deal with them then.