Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

Because the word says what faith is. Do you not have certainty in the word of God? Are you not assured of His word? Have you no confidence?

Why do you think I don't have certainty/confidence?
I believe I could fall away if I want to.

YOU are the one saying that if a person falls away they were never saved...
so
HOW can you be sure you're saved if there are persons that THINK they're saved
BUT ARE NOT.

If not, how do you stand against sin and evil in this world? Are you why the Church is so weak and powerless?

I'm making the church weak and powerless because I'm simply stating what Jesus taught?
Did Jesus teach that we are to obey Him or not?
Did Jesus say to follow Him or not?

The church will be weak and powerless when it has lost its way due to teachings that are not found in scripture.
What scripture do you think states that your salvation is eternal and cannot be forfeited?

How can you be ever ready to share the hope (confidence) in you if you have no confidence? How can you work out a salvation that you only "maybe" have if you get it all right?

How do you know I have no confidence?

You've asked a lot of questions - not based on anything -
but you have not replied to MY questions.

I can't believe someone who has supposedly walked with the Lord as long as you have even thinks to ask such a question?

Which question?
I asked a few.

How long have I been walking with the Lord?

 

[Toknow]

Funny how you only address the salvation that requires our participation and not the part that God works without your permission.

Funny how you don't reply to posts and only want to speak about the part that Jesus did for you

but not the part that you're supposed to be doing for Him.

And you do sound calvinist.

Which part does God do without my permission?
Post some scripture if you can.

 

[studier]

What's the matter?
Don't like teaching for free of charge?

Give answers that are needed that you have to share.
Freely you were given.....

Open your frontal lobe and let a thought in. Questions are either avoided or answers are attempted - both are helpful to the discussion.

BTW, even when I was teaching, I never asked for a cent. I'd learned from a grace teacher and still agree with this part of his teaching even though it is not the only biblical policy.

 

[studier]

I get that but at what future present does it stop being true? The present is the only moment we can live in therefore I read it now, it is true, I read it next week, it is true.

This is kind of the point, but why is it true of you?

From a practical perspective it remains true forever.

As long as it's actually true of you. But the perfect tense only says what you said above. It doesn't say "forever".

 

[sawdust]

I'm explaining what a verb tense in Eph2:8-9 says and doesn't say and explaining why eternal security is not stated in the verb tense.

The verb tense in Eph2:8 doesn't say anything about it lasting or not lasting beyond that current statement Paul made. It only says it had lasted from when it began up to that current point in time.

Why must we assume what you say?

The verb tense itself is neutral; it doesn't support or deny eternal security. Since the grammar doesn't do the work, you’re shifting the argument away from it.

If the 'gift' refers to the entire process of being 'saved by grace through faith,' - which I think is the grammatical structure - why are you isolating only one prepositional phrase ('by grace') to force a sense of security into the verb? Why must we assume your conclusion is the only option, and more importantly, why must we consider part of the phrase and only ongoing grace apart from ongoing faith?

Because the salvation it is talking about is being made alive in Christ. Eph.2:1 That is a salvation that occurs in an instant and is solely the Lord's doing. It is Christ's faith in going to the Cross that ensured our salvation from death and when we are made alive in Christ, we are no longer dead and His faith (in overcoming death) becomes our faith at that point. That is why it is called a gift. You had no faith until the moment Christ (who is the word) entered in and claimed you as His own. Faith comes from the word.

I am not forcing anything, I am simply coming to a logical conclusion that at no point in time, whenever that point is, can that statement "we are saved by grace through faith" be anything but true. You are the one trying to extrapolate it into our faithful or faithless (as the case may be) discipleship but the verse is very clear our new birth has nothing to do with us, it is a gift of God.

 

[Toknow]

Ohhhhh....

You are just too smart and wise for this place.

That's the best you can do Genez?

Doesn't say much for your theology.

You might have missed some parts of my post.

YOU said a person could RETURN TO THE WORLD
and STILL BE SAVED.

I mean it Genez...
you must be reading a different NT.
Really.

I'll copy my post again.
Maybe you could come up with a reply to support your position.
Or maybe not because you're position is untenable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my post 8212

You can lose direction and begin walking in the ways of the world.

Walking in the way of the world is NOT walking with Christ.

Galatians 5:16-21
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Those that are walking in the world will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

When that happens we do not lose our salvation from the Lake of Fire.
But, we lose blessings that God wants to accompany our salvation on earth.

No sir. We do not lose BLESSINGS.
Nowhere in the NT is this taught.

The dog went back to his vomit
The pig went back to wallowin in the mire.
They lost salvation...not gifts.

You mentioned returning to the world.
I don't know if you mean when a person SINS....
or when he returns to a LIFE OF SIN...which corresponds more to returning to the world.
That person cannot be saved...he will be as lost as before.


John said:

1 John 3:4-10
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.



Anyone who practices righteousness is of God. verse 10

The one who practices sin is of the devil. verse 8

John is not speaking about losing BLESSINGS....
John is writing his gospel and letters to SAVE OUR SOUL.

​

 

[sawdust]

This is kind of the point, but why is it true of you?

As long as it's actually true of you. But the perfect tense only says what you said above. It doesn't say "forever".

It is true of God and His work. It says nothing of my work and indeed, expressly says my works has nothing to do with it.

 

[Genez]

I've explained the meaning of the tense extensively and repeatedly GeneZ. You may be tuning into the "game" at a late point in the discussion and drawing a false conclusion.

What's helpful to our understanding is that the perfect tense does not give assurance to the believer beyond the point the perfect tense was used to speak of their then current state.

Eternal Security does not come from that verb.

Let's see what @Roger316 would like to agree or disagree with.

What tense is this describing?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me
I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my
will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who
sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them
up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

For Jesus to lose just one of all the Father gave Him?

Would mean that Jesus failed to do the Father's will.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him ​

who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of ​

all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." ​

Why are you against His words?

 

[Toknow]

I know but the scripture in question Eph.2:8 is not talking about discipleship, it is talking about being regeneration. You did nothing to be made alive in Christ, that was all God's doing hence, saved by grace and not of works.

How is Ephesians 2:8 the scripture in question?

I posted Luke 14:28-30 and explained that Jesus said to count the COST before we decide to follow Him.

You might have missed it.

Here it is again:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my post no. 8210



Luke 14.28-30
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,

30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


Jesus is teaching that there's a cost to following Him.
Some on here believe that salvation is a free gift, which it is,
but that God wants nothing in return.

If God wants nothing in return,,,then Jesus' teaching is a false teaching.
There IS a cost to following Jesus.

One cost is to treat others with respect....
some on here do not do this...
are they following Jesus?


Jesus said that we are to pick up our cross daily and follow Him.
Some do not want a cross to pick up.
Some do not want to follow Him.
They just want to live the way they were living before.

Jesus wants us to follow Him.
Jesus wants us to obey Him.

 

[sawdust]

Why do you think I don't have certainty/confidence?
I believe I could fall away if I want to.

You have confidence you are saved but you believe you can fall away? Sounds to me like your only confidence is in yourself. Maybe you will keep yourself alive or maybe you will die again, who knows?

Good luck with that.

 

[sawdust]

How is Ephesians 2:8 the scripture in question?

Because that was the scripture we were talking about regarding @studier comments of it being in the present periphrastic tense.

 

[Toknow]

What tense is this describing?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me ​

I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my ​

will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who ​

sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them ​

up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

For Jesus to lose just one of all the Father gave Him?

Would mean that Jesus failed to do the Father's will.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him ​

who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of ​

all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." ​

Why are you against His words?

Wow,
Genez
YOU PEOPLE (all those that agree with you)
must have all gone to the same theology school.

I had to explain the above to Kroogz.
Guess you missed it.

Here it is again.
It's from my notes.....



JOHN 6:35-40







Youquoted:

1.All the Father give me will come to me.

How does this square with:


John14:6
6Jesussaid to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no onecomes to the Father but through Me.


Whichstatement is correct?
Remember,scripture cannot conflict with scripture.



You quoted:

2.And this is the will of the Father, that I lose none of all those Hehas given me.


Let'slook at the verse:

NewInternational Version
Andthis is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of allthose he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

NewLiving Translation
Andthis is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all thosehe has given me, but that I should raise them up at the lastday.

EnglishStandard Version
Andthis is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing ofall that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

BereanStandard Bible
Andthis is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of thoseHe has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

BereanLiteral Bible
Nowthis is the will of the One havingsent Me, that all that He has given Me, I should lose none of it, butwill raise it up in the last day.

KingJames Bible
Andthis is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which hehath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again atthe last day.

NewKing James Version
Thisis the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me Ishould lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

NewAmerican Standard Bible
Andthis is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He hasgiven Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the lastday.

NASB1995
“Thisis the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me Ilose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

NASB1977
“Andthis is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given MeI lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

LegacyStandard Bible
Nowthis is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given MeI lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

AmplifiedBible
Thisis the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me Ilose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the lastday.

ChristianStandard Bible
Thisis the will of him who sent me: that I should lose none of those hehas given me but should raise them up on the last day.

HolmanChristian Standard Bible
Thisis the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those Hehas given Me but should raise them up on the last day.

AmericanStandard Version
Andthis is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hathgiven me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the lastday.

ContemporaryEnglish Version
andhe wants to make certain that none of the ones he has given me willbe lost. Instead, he wants me to raise them to life on the lastday.

EnglishRevised Version
Andthis is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hathgiven me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the lastday.

GOD'SWORD® Translation
Theone who sent me doesn't want me to lose any of those he gave me. Hewants me to bring them back to life on the last day.

GoodNews Translation
Andit is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of allthose he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life onthe last day.

InternationalStandard Version
Andthis is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not loseanything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on thelast day.

NETBible
Nowthis is the will of the one who sent me--that I should not lose oneperson of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at thelast day.

NewHeart English Bible
Thisis the will of him who sent me, that of all he has given to me Ishould lose nothing, but should raise him up at the lastday.

Webster'sBible Translation
Andthis is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hathgiven me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at thelast day.

WeymouthNew Testament
Andthis is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given meI should lose nothing, but should raise it to life on the lastday.
Majority Text Translations
MajorityStandard Bible
Andthis is the will of the Father who sent Me, that I shall lose none ofthose He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

WorldEnglish Bible
Thisis the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to meI should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the lastday.



Hereare my questions to you:
WHATis going to be resurrected?
isit WHO or a WHAT and what would that WHAT be?


Notice that in verse John 6:35 Jesus is speaking of persons...
but it changes in verse 37 and 39.


John6:35-39
35Jesussaid to them, “I am the bread of life; hewho comes to Me will not hunger, andhe who believes in Me will never thirst.

36“ButI said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37“Allthat the Father gives Me will come to Me, and theone who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38“ForI have come down from heaven, notto do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39“Thisis the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me Ilose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40“Forthis is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son andbelieves in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise himup on the last day.”


Readverses 38 and 39 a few times.
Is Jesus still speaking of PERSONS?
Oris He speaking about something He came down to earth,,,,at thecommand of Father,,,,,TO DO?
Whatis it that Jesus was sent TO DO?

Note that Jesus refers to his subject as: IT
Jesuswill raise IT up on the last day...
not WHO

How to reconcile this?

In verse 40 Jesus repeats what the entire NT teaches:
Wemust behold (accept) the Son
and
BELIEVEin Him (what does believe mean if we're already told to BEHOLDJesus)
inorder to be raised up on the last day.


Youcan either study this a little...
or come back with some silly remark.

Up to you.

 

[Toknow]

Because that was the scripture we were talking about regarding @studier comments of it being in the present periphrastic tense.

You're unable to make the change from one discussion to another?

I was not involved with Ephesians 2:8

Perhaps you'd care to reply to MY verses which show that we must DO SOMETHING for our salvation.

Something you do not agree with, but is plainly stated throughout the NT.

 

[Toknow]

You have confidence you are saved but you believe you can fall away?

Sure.
This is what the NT teaches.

You don't believe the NT?

Sounds to me like your only confidence is in yourself. Maybe you will keep yourself alive or maybe you will die again, who knows?

Good luck with that.

Maybe you could post scripture to support your unbiblical view that salvation is assured NO MATTER WHAT.

And, you never did answer my question.

WHAT IS SANCTIFICATION?

Please reply.
Thanks.

 

[Toknow]

You have confidence you are saved but you believe you can fall away? Sounds to me like your only confidence is in yourself. Maybe you will keep yourself alive or maybe you will die again, who knows?

Good luck with that.

I trust you'll be replying to my post no. 8229 since you are so confident of your position.
Thanks.

With scripture, I hope.

Anything else is just your OPINION.

 

[studier]

Ohhhhh....

You are just too smart and wise for this place.

Meaningless response.

 

[Toknow]

@Genez


You might have missed my post no. 8226

You do seem to miss my posts.

Perhaps you could give it a reply?
With scripture of course.

Something that will actually support your theological belief system....
your soteriology.

 

[Toknow]

Meaningless response.

As usual.

Feels like a one-sided convesation.
A monologue.

 

[sawdust]

Perhaps you'd care to reply to MY verses which show that we must DO SOMETHING for our salvation.

No.

 

[studier]

Because the salvation it is talking about is being made alive in Christ. Eph.2:1 That is a salvation that occurs in an instant and is solely the Lord's doing. It is Christ's faith in going to the Cross that ensured our salvation from death and when we are made alive in Christ, we are no longer dead and His faith (in overcoming death) becomes our faith at that point. That is why it is called a gift. You had no faith until the moment Christ (who is the word) entered in and claimed you as His own. Faith comes from the word.

I am not forcing anything, I am simply coming to a logical conclusion that at no point in time, whenever that point is, can that statement "we are saved by grace through faith" be anything but true. You are the one trying to extrapolate it into our faithful or faithless (as the case may be) discipleship but the verse is very clear our new birth has nothing to do with us, it is a gift of God.

IOW, you're presenting an overall systematic theology to tell us what a verb tense means.

By your last statement I take it that you soteriology is determinstic.