Loss of salvation???

[Sipsey]

You do hate those IF's.

You said:

Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are,

(demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Yes, mailmandan...
it is WHOSE HOUSE WE ARE

IF

WE HOLD FAST....

The IF above does not require any future tense to be demonstrated.
We are the house IF we hold fast.

We already are the house...
IF
we hold fast.

Holding fast in the condition required to REMAIN God's house...
to REMAIN partakes of Christ.


Paragraphs to explain that pesky little word...
IF

They are partakers NOW...this is the part you do not like.....
IF they REAMAIN.

Always an English lesson instead of a soteriological lesson.
BECAUSE
You cannot get around what it means in plain English.

It has been a few decades since I was taught a bit of the Greek. Was my teacher incorrect, or does my memory fail me concerning the ‘Ifs” in Scripture. It seems that I recall there were 3 primary if’s;
1- If, and “it may or not be true.”
2- If, and “it is true.”
3- If, and “it is not true.”

I also understand that the nuance in any given verse depends on the Greek construction, not just the English word “if,”

So, how one understands those “If” statements does seem to be based on ones theology as well as the Greek.

 

[studier]

Col3:1 begins with one of those IF clauses, and the context of Put On the New Self is cross referenced with Eph4:30's context of New Life in Christ.

It does begin with an "IF" clause. What does it tell us?

Please show the language that you say is tying together Col1 and Eph4.

Eph4:30 "you were sealed" is aorist indicative passive, and the Strong's Greek suggests a connotation of concealment in the sealing.

What does the verb structure tell us about the sealing?

Please provide a link to or quote from Strong's and explain why 'concealment' is the focus and why it is important.

If the present imperative active is to not grieve the Holy Spirit, in whom we are sealed (aorist indicative passive), why then would it be anything other than an assumption if we conclude a consequence of an unsealing if we do? Seeing that we are sealed for the day of redemption, that is, to be revealed when He appears.

The command to not grieve the holy spirit is as you say. Must the command be obeyed?

Again, what does the aorist verb tense tell us?

Why wouldn't it be an assumption that sealing cannot be negatively impacted by the one sealed?

What does it mean to grieve the Holy Spirit and what is the impact of disobeying God and grieving His Holy Spirit?

 

[studier]

Is there no distinction their arguments of limited atonement?

Sure, but where do they, or some of them posting here, ultimately differ re: a monergistic view of perseverance or security?

 

[studier]

It has been a few decades since I was taught a bit of the Greek. Was my teacher incorrect, or does my memory fail me concerning the ‘Ifs” in Scripture. It seems that I recall there were 3 primary if’s;
1- If, and “it may or not be true.”
2- If, and “it is true.”
3- If, and “it is not true.”

I also understand that the nuance in any given verse depends on the Greek construction, not just the English word “if,”

So, how one understands those “If” statements does seem to be based on ones theology as well as the Greek.

If I may, very basically and per the actual classification numbering:

1 - Assumption of truth for sake of argument
2 - Assumption of untruth for sake of argument
3 - Maybe yes, maybe no (but more to this than simple maybe)

When we see it being treated as simple confirmation as at least one is doing in this thread, it's usually a theological assertion overriding the grammar.

 

[sawdust]

So, we have the verb tense alone issue behind us. Thanks for clarifying.

We don't have to choose to believe?

Yes, believing is on us but it is not our will that takes us from death to life, places us in Christ and seats us with Him in the Heavenly realms. We can believe the truth till the cows come home but if God does not act, all our believing avails us not.

John 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Our will can not get us from death to life so why do you think our will can get us from life to death when this is the very reason Christ hung on that Cross and died?

There is so much we can lose if we do not live in accordance with the word, but can one ever be strong enough to undo the Lord's work when you are no longer your own but bought with a price? 1Cor.6:20 Do you honestly believe the Lord thinks so little of His investment that having given you to His Son and the Son's promise not to lose any that He has been given, Jn.6:39-40 that you can just shake off the will of God because "it got too hard"?

We can lose the blessings of true discipleship but we cannot lose the life we have been given, the Lord secures that life, He is that life and those who are in Him remain to the day of redemption. What sought of guarantee is a "if, but or maybe" salvation only if you get it right?

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The real question that should be asked is not 'can one lose their salvation' but 'is one in Christ'. In Him we are secure and it is for this very reason, because of the great cost to get us there, because of the enormous riches of His grace and kindness toward us that we should make every effort to follow Him in truth and live to glorify Him and him alone.

The Lord God determined to save believers (in Him) long before any of us existed. It is not our believing that saves us, it is the will of God to save those who believe that sees us redeemed from death and given eternal life.

 

[studier]

Yes, believing is on us but it is not our will that takes us from death to life, places us in Christ and seats us with Him in the Heavenly realms. We can believe the truth till the cows come home but if God does not act, all our believing avails us not.

John 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Our will can not get us from death to life so why do you think our will can get us from life to death when this is the very reason Christ hung on that Cross and died?

There is so much we can lose if we do not live in accordance with the word, but can one ever be strong enough to undo the Lord's work when you are no longer your own but bought with a price? 1Cor.6:20 Do you honestly believe the Lord thinks so little of His investment that having given you to His Son and the Son's promise not to lose any that He has been given, Jn.6:39-40 that you can just shake off the will of God because "it got too hard"?

We can lose the blessings of true discipleship but we cannot lose the life we have been given, the Lord secures that life, He is that life and those who are in Him remain to the day of redemption. What sought of guarantee is a "if, but or maybe" salvation only if you get it right?

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The real question that should be asked is not 'can one lose their salvation' but 'is one in Christ'. In Him we are secure and it is for this very reason, because of the great cost to get us there, because of the enormous riches of His grace and kindness toward us that we should make every effort to follow Him in truth and live to glorify Him and him alone.

The Lord God determined to save believers (in Him) long before any of us existed. It is not our believing that saves us, it is the will of God to save those who believe that sees us redeemed from death and given eternal life.

My question was simple - Do we choose to believe?"

Your answer seems to say yes and no.

So, please just simplify all of this;

- Does God require us to choose to believe His Gospel?

- Does God require us to continue to choose to believe His Gospel?

 

[sawdust]

My question was simple - Do we choose to believe?"

Your answer seems to say yes and no.

So, please just simplify all of this;

- Does God require us to choose to believe His Gospel?

- Does God require us to continue to choose to believe His Gospel?

I thought it was fairly clear.

Yes we believe.

Does our believing save us or are we saved because God saves believers?

Are we born again because we willed it or because God willed it?

Just whose will are you relying on for your salvation?

 

[Genez]

Gossipping again.

Your Christianity is shining through...
as usual.

No transformation.
What does that say?

Give us as much sound understanding as you give criticism you might turn out to be half good at teaching soundly.

 

[Genez]

My question was simple - Do we choose to believe?"

We can choose to want to believe.
Choose to Wishing it were true.

God then turns it into reality by grace.
And, then the mystery begins.

 

[studier]

I thought it was fairly clear.

Yes we believe.

Does our believing save us or are we saved because God saves believers?

Are we born again because we willed it or because God willed it?

Just whose will are you relying on for your salvation?

But again you've not answered my question - do we choose to believe?

 

[sawdust]

My question was simple - Do we choose to believe?"

Your answer seems to say yes and no.

So, please just simplify all of this;

- Does God require us to choose to believe His Gospel?

- Does God require us to continue to choose to believe His Gospel?

to put it as simply as I can ..

- Yes, to be given life.
- Yes, and more than the Gospel, for growth in the life we have been given.

You cannot work out a salvation you do not have.

Does salvation depend upon your will or the will of God?

 

[studier]

We can choose to want to believe.
Choose to Wishing it were true.

God then turns it into reality by grace.
And, then the mystery begins.

I'm sure you should have heard the RBThieme teaching that God makes the Gospel 'perspicuous'.

Re: the volition of the unbeliever, here's a quote from his book, The Barrier p.34, "With the barrier removed, only unbelief separates you from God. If you believe in Christ, then you have crossed the line of separation. If you do not believe, only your volition separates you from God’s gift of salvation.

So, do we choose to believe God's Gospel or not?

 

[studier]

to put it as simply as I can ..

- Yes, to be given life.
- Yes, and more than the Gospel, for growth in the life we have been given.

You cannot work out a salvation you do not have.

We must choose to believe and we must choose to continue to believe.

Does salvation depend upon your will or the will of God?

It's not one or the other. It depends first upon God's will to save and then on man's responsive will to be saved.

And from what we've just agreed upon man must choose to believe and then continue to choose to believe, because this is God's will

 

[Genez]

I'm sure you should have heard the RBThieme teaching that God makes the Gospel 'perspicuous'.

Re: the volition of the unbeliever, here's a quote from his book, The Barrier p.34, "With the barrier removed, only unbelief separates you from God. If you believe in Christ, then you have crossed the line of separation. If you do not believe, only your volition separates you from God’s gift of salvation.

So, do we choose to believe God's Gospel or not?

Who's talking about RBT?

I am talking about what over 40 years of what the Word teaches me, and what the Holy Spirit has entered into my heart with my approval, after being shown in the Spirit.

I believe that we first choose to want to believe.
God's power of grace places us in a place of having the freedom to have such a desire.
Grace then surprises us by God having our desire established as reality.
It is the process of drawing us that makes or breaks the outcome.

 

[Kroogz]

Does our believing save us or are we saved because God saves believers?

That is the million dollar question.

Get this question right......All the fuss fades away.

 

[studier]

Who's talking about RBT?

I am talking about what over 40 years of what the Word teaches me, and what the Holy Spirit has entered into my heart with my approval, after being shown in the Spirit.

I believe that we first choose to want to believe.
God's power of grace places us in a place of having the freedom to have such a desire.
Grace then surprises us by God having our desire established as reality.
It is the process of drawing us that makes or breaks the outcome.

Then why do you always link others to him? Why not just explain things yourself? I'm sure you can show from Scripture what you just said, even though it ultimately clouds whether or not we actually choose to believe.

 

[Mem]

It does begin with an "IF" clause. What does it tell us

"If then you were raised with Christ..." suggests a condition of having been raised with Christ. The Strong's Lexicon explains Ei as a primary particle of conditionality and translates it, "Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ." Coupled with the present imperative active 'strive for'. Strong's Lexicon Col3:1
According to Bing Copilot, the imperative mood expresses a command, request, instruction, or advice, which addresses your question here;

The command to not grieve the holy spirit is as you say. Must the command be obeyed?

Do you receive it as a command because it is impossible that it be viewed as a strong suggestion, very good advice, or wise instruction?

Please show the language that you say is tying together Col1 and Eph4.

I was referring to the cross-referenced annotation of Eph4:17-32 and Col3:1-17, which ties together their BSB + Strong's section subheadings, New Life in Christ and Put On the New Self, respectively.

What does the verb structure tell us about the sealing?

Please provide a link to or quote from Strong's and explain why 'concealment' is the focus and why it is important.

Referring to Strong's Eph4:30 and Strong's Greek 4972: To seal, set a seal upon. From sphragis; to stamp for security or preservation; by implication, to keep secret, to attest.

This inspires an analogy of winners of the Academy Awards, where the audience knows who has been nominated up to the point when the presenter opens the envelope. If it the meaning is intended to be something to that sense, then we are the winners and Christ is the envelope. If the envelope is sealed, it is an indication that a winner has been chosen but it is kept from the audience until the award ceremony.

Again, what does the aorist verb tense tell us?

Why wouldn't it be an assumption that sealing cannot be negatively impacted by the one sealed?

The aorist verb is a snapshot of a past event.
If I was passively hidden, then how could I actively and effectively reveal myself?

What does it mean to grieve the Holy Spirit and what is the impact of disobeying God and grieving His Holy Spirit?

Not to compare Him to Charlie Brown, but I think in cartoons. Is there scripture the offers the consequences of grieving the Holy Spirit other than the obvious pain, sadness, and distress it incurs to His Person?

 

[Kroogz]

Who's talking about RBT?

I believe we have a couple on this forum that are down right jealous of one of the greatest teachers this generation has seen in RBT.

 

[Genez]

Then why do you always link others to him? Why not just explain things yourself? I'm sure you can show from Scripture what you just said, even though it ultimately clouds whether or not we actually choose to believe.

I link to him because he is probably the finest Bible teacher one could ask for with easy access to teachings.

But, keep in mind.
I realize that he is not the right pastor for everyone.

Since there is no money asked for when ordering?
I feel safe that no one will feel ripped off if they should so happen to find him not to their liking.

For those who feel at home with him, it so happens to be high quality teaching.

 

[Genez]

I believe we have a couple on this forum that are down right jealous of one of the greatest teachers this generation has seen in RBT.

Jealousy is one of the main factors.

When I had worked the front of the house for a world renown chef, his kitchen staff were influenced by a Bible college down the street.
The president of the school had been an avid student of R.B. Thieme.
His own teaching was advanced compared to what was to be found locally. Many students loved the president of the Bible college.

But, after some students began to hear about and go with RBT? The president of the college became upset.
He told me it was because a friend of his who also ran a Bible college, had a split over RBT teachings with the staff.

Then all the bad mouthing began to keep others away from Thieme.
The Chef I worked for (who is a Christian) told me it was because of jealousy.
That he had seen the same thing himself with other chefs .

Long story-short.
After slandering the name of RBT for a while, the school ran into troubles and was forced to shut down.
Jealousy was the sin not dealt with....