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TruthDefender
Guest
The letter was written to the saints in Rome (most likely made up of Gentile and Jewish converts). Once again, the Jewish converts were out of sorts in their thinking.
The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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T
TruthDefender
Guest
I’m repeating myself, since I’ve given multiple Scriptures.!!
How about you, you’ve given no Scripture to back up your doctrine?
You have quoted Scripture without the context that shows the law that its being referred to. I have asked you to add that context, still waiting.
Sure here is the Scripture I posted that clearly explains my position. If you disagree, please use a biblical argument as to why. You just saying no is not a biblical argument.
The Ten Commandments is the OC/OT Exo34:28 and its the same God in the OT/OC as it is in the NT/NC and God does not change according to Him, so that's exactly what you are saying, when you make statements like this .
The agreement ended, but God wrote a new agreement established on better promises. Heb8:6 and it still has God's laws Heb8:10 because that was never the issue, the same issue with us Heb3:7-19
Also not sure if you saw this.....but can you please respond to the entire context of Mat5:17 of what Jesus was predicted to fulfill with His law.
Regarding Mat5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Jesus plainly said He did not come to destroy the law, but instead He came to fulfill.
What was prophesized that Jesus would do to His law that He fulfilled?
Isa 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Magnify means make larger, not end, not to destroy as Jesus said plainly.
Which we see Jesus doing with the Ten Commandments in this very passage! Relating anger to thou shalt not murder, relating thoughts of lust with thou shalt not commit murder. This is how much Jesus does not want us to sin and break His commandments, not to even have thoughts that lead to breaking them and He goes on to say in doing so one is sinning and will be in fear of Judgement. Mat5:17-30
Why Jesus said plainly
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Its not that Jesus did not make Himself clear that He wants us to keep His commandments- He wrote them, He spoke them, He came in the flesh to magnify them, He taught them He kept them - the issue is not that He was not clear, the issue is our unbelief to live out what He says.
The surrender of self to Christ brings obedience to the law and we have perfect peace.
Peace that Jesus has forgiven us of our sins and peace that by christ power we are not sinning.
You can not be joined to Christ and continue to sin.
Sin seperates us from Christ.
By surrendering ourselves to Him we are walking in the Spirit not the flesh.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The Spirit living in us does not transgress the law. The law is not a yoke of bondage. It is a natural response of walking with Christ. All glory to God.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
Context is not really needed, the verses are self explanatory. You just refuse to believe them, because your doctrine doesn’t fit.
There are many different laws so when we leave out the context of which verse sometimes in the very next sentence and try to apply it to another law its not speaking about, that is not trusting in the word of God, but on how we want it to mean.
But it doesn't seem like this is something you are interested in, so I guess it will sort itself out soon enough.
The topic that they were debating in Acts 15 was whether Gentiles are requires to become Jews in order to become saved, which would make no sense if Gentiles can't become Jews. Likewise, Paul's rule for all of the churches that Jews should stay Jews and Gentiles should stay Gentiles (1 Corinthian 7:19).
While the book of Romans was addressed to Christians in Rome, that does not mean that certain verses in that book do not address a specific group of Christians. In Romans 2:17, Paul addressed those who called themselves Jews, so was addressing Gentiles who had converted to being Jews and were now calling themselves Jews.
In Matthew 27:37, they nailed a handwritten ordinance to Christ's cross that announced the charge that was a against him, which fits perfectly with the concept of a handwritten ordinance that listed the charges that were against us being nailed to his cross instead and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with nailed the Mosaic Covenant or its laws to the cross. The reason why Jesus went to the cross was not in order to free us to become doers of what the Mosaic Law reveals to be sin, but just the opposite. In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Mosaic Law but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).
We can't believe the words of Jesus while rejecting what Moses wrote.
In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.
Can you quote where the OT speaks about the Mosaic Covenant as something that can be fulfilled or as saying anything along the lines that it is over once its terms are fulfilled? I can quote where the OT repeatedly says that the Mosaic Covenant is eternal or things like that this is a statute forever throughout your generations. Do you think that if someone fulfilled the New Covenant, then it would be over?
Paul was speaking to Gentiles who had converted to being Jews who were causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles.
The is a reality that is true about the way to embody God's character traits that was true before God made any covenants with man, and which has been revealed through God's covenants, but it true regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. If your goal is to know God through embodying His character traits, then you will follow those instructions and if your goal is to not know God, then you will not follow those instructions.
In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it.
According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Christ did to abolish it. If you pay your taxes for the year, then you have correctly fulfilled your obligation to the law, but that does not mean that you no longer need to pay taxes. Jesus did fulfill the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it.
The Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it would be contradictory to interpret that verse as referring to the Law of God as if we are not led by God when we are led by God.
It is contradictory to think that we can't hold on to Jesus and what he taught at the same time or to think that we can't hold on to God's Word made flesh and God's Word at the same time.
The old covenant is set forth in the book of Deuteronomy. It was made between God and Israel. It is a covenant of works by which the nation would receive blessing and remain in the land for covenant obedience and suffer severe judgment and lose the use of the land for covenant disobedience.
The new covenant was ushered in by Christ with His resurrection. This covenant, however, was not between God and men, but between God the Father and God the Son. The beneficiaries of this covenant are those who believe. And unlike the first covenant, individuals are not responsible to maintain any terms because Christ has already done all that is necessary. Additionally, the latter covenant deals with salvation while the former covenant deals only with Israel prosperity in the land or judgment and possibly losing access to the land.
Not understanding the nature of the 2 covenants leads to much confusion.
Psalms 119:29-30 shows that the Mosaic Covenant was both a covenant of works and a covenant of grace and also shows that salvation was by grace through faith under it.
In Deuteronomy 30, it forms the basis for the New Covenant by prophesying about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is why Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 are in regard to where God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses, and where God will put the Law of Moses in our minds and write it on our hearts. In Jeremiah 31:31, the New Covenant is only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so it is only through becoming joined to Israel through faith in Christ that Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant.
In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated form Christ, alienated from Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Law of Moses, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Law of Moses.
No it wasn't. The covenant had nothing to do with salvation. If it was, you could find it in the covenant in Deuteronomy. Your Psalm 119 reference does contain elements of grace, but it has nothing to do with Israel. The Psalm is a plea of an individual to have relationship with God. The old covenant doesn't deal with individuals. It applies to the nation Israel as a whole.
You can't help yourself. You say Deuteronomy 30 is a reference to a covenant of grace and then admit the chapter deals with corporate Israel and their covenant of keeping the law...works. The references to Ezekiel are references to the new covenant because God works in individuals without any works required of them.
I don't see the need to address your scriptures directly. If I am right, and God's word says so, then it explains why OSAS is correct and the idea that salvation can be lost is not.
Please note that the four gospels were the last books to be written. That does not mean that they are to be ignored, but the epistles shed a lot of light on what the New Covenant means. For example, Jesus told the rich man to sell all that he had if he wanted eternal life. In Acts, we read that people voluntarily sold excess property and gave it to the apostles to distribute. The account of Annanias and Saphira shows that Lord Jesus put no demands on his people to sell up. Ananias' sin was to lie about it, not to withhold some money.
The letter to the Ephesians lays out the glorious gospel. Paul says that we are saved by grace and not by works. You agree with that. It also says that we should live in the light of what God has done for us in Christ.
These are some of the verses that confirm what I'm saying: Colossians 2:10
"And you are complete in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority.........." Berean literal
"And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:22 & 23
Colossians 2:10 is self explanatory. When I first realised the implications of Ephesians reference, I was blown away. Lord Jesus is the Head of his body. That is both corporate and individual. In the natural, if the body dies, so does the head. In the spirit, the spirit cannot die because it is of God. And the church is the fullness of Christ! Not might be one day, not the fullness one day and dead the next, but crucified, dead, buried and risen with Christ. And all this is the wonderful work of the Lord Jesus. And it is God who puts us into Christ. We have nothing to do with it except to believe (1 Corinthians 1:30).
Paul said that last truth to the divided and unruly Corinthians. They tolerated sin that even the unbelievers despised. Some believers treated others with contempt and god allowed them to get sick and some died. Yet this is how Paul addresses them:
"I always thank my God for you because of the grace He has given you in Christ Jesus. For in Him you have been enriched in every way, in all speech and all knowledge, because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you."
He then proceeds to rip them to shreds. I seriously wish that many more churches were hauled over the coals for their wrong behaviour. Too many church leaders fear offending those who attend. The unpardonable sin used to be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Now it is offending someone. OK, sarcasm but you get my point.
If only God's people knew how much they were losing by failing to let God change them. The salvation of the soul is not some airy fairy concept. It is the goal of our faith. I have never heard this preached in the denominational system except for one Pentecostal pastor nearly 50 years ago. He was brought before the denomination's board and told that the denomination did not accept the teaching. He valued his position more than the truth and quit preaching it. It was a shame.
I hope this helps.
Entirely false doctrine, but you refuse to accept God's word. You know what God's word has to say, yet you know better than God. I'll remind you, so perhaps you will at least quit trying to lead others astray. Alternatively, you could buy yourself a millstone.
Acts 15
"1Then some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after engaging these men in sharp debate, Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3Sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, recounting the conversion of the Gentiles and bringing great joy to all the brothers. 4On their arrival in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and apostles and elders, to whom they reported all that God had done through them.
5But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.
7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.
10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16‘After this I will return and rebuild the fallen tent of David. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things 18that have been known for ages.’
19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood. 21For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to select men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas called Barsabbas and Silas, two leaders among the brothers, 23and sent them with this letter:
"The apostles and the elders, your brothers,
To the brothers among the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
24It has come to our attention that some went out from us without our authorization and unsettled you, troubling your minds by what they said.c 25So we all agreed to choose men to send to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you in person the same things we are writing.
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond these essential requirements: 29You must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."
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TruthDefender
Guest
…that I’m not interested in!? You’re the one that doesn’t seem too interested in what God says. You refute verses when they’re given, even when we explain them, you refute it.
So who is not interested?
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TruthDefender
Guest
Sorry, I can’t believe your words, because they’re in opposition to God’s word.
If Gentiles could not become Jews, then it wouldn't make any sense for them to be discussing whether Gentiles should become Jews.