John Baptized with Water - Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit & with Fire

[FlyingDove]

John's Baptism - Administrator: John - Element: water - Purpose: repentance for Israel Only (Jn 1:31) - Temporary, preparatory. Ended: Functionally at Pentecost (Acts 2) & formally discontinued in Acts 19

Jesus Performs Two Baptisms

(1) Holy Spirit baptism - Administrator: Jesus - Element: the Holy Spirit - Purpose: salvation, new birth, union with Christ - Timing: Happens at conversion.

(2) Fire Baptism - Administrator: Jesus - Element: Fire - Purpose judgment - Jesus gives the meaning Himself - He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt 3:12)

What's the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ?

For a formula to be universal it must work for all people, in all places, under all conditions.

Holy Spirit Baptism is the universal entry into the Body of Christ.

Why Acts 2:38 Is Not the Universal Formula

Acts 2:38 (repent, be baptized, receive the Spirit) was spoken: At a mandatory attend feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy, under Jewish covenant laws. To Israel only. Not one Gentile is among the 3,000 saved at Pentecost & Acts 10:45 proves this beyond dispute. Scripture never records a single Gentile being saved by the Acts 2:38 sequence.

Therefore: Acts 2 cannot be the universal salvation pattern.

Acts 10, The 1st Gentiles Saved & the Universal Pattern

Acts 10 Cornelius house these Gentiles HEARD the gospel Vs.34-44, BELEVED & thru FAITH ALONE, were baptized by Jesus with His forever (John 14:16) salvation‑sealing Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5)

Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Matt 9:4, Jn 6:64, Acts 1:24, Rev 2:23) eternally sealed them instantly.

This is the 1st time a Gentiles is saved & enters the Body of Christ, Jesus Himself establishes the pattern. Hear > Believe > Receive > Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

This is the New Testament universal initiation for Jew and Gentile alike into the Body of Christ.

 

[tablet123]

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

The Samaritans were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

remission
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Here remission means forgiveness.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

baptized
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

Here it says water baptism is to wash away sins.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

baptism
baptisma
bap'-tis-mah
From G907; baptism (technically or figuratively): - baptism.

baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet).

Here it says water baptism does now save us.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

When we are water baptized we are baptized in to Jesus' death and if we do that we will rise to newness of life.

Jesus died, was buried, and rose and we repent, water baptized, receive the Spirit.

You cannot cut out the middle man.

Salvation is the same for all people which the Bible says there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

The Jews are not going to have a different method than the Gentiles.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

water
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.

Jesus said born of water and the Spirit.

 

[GWH]

John's Baptism - Administrator: John - Element: water - Purpose: repentance for Israel Only (Jn 1:31) - Temporary, preparatory. Ended: Functionally at Pentecost (Acts 2) & formally discontinued in Acts 19

Jesus Performs Two Baptisms

(1) Holy Spirit baptism - Administrator: Jesus - Element: the Holy Spirit - Purpose: salvation, new birth, union with Christ - Timing: Happens at conversion.

(2) Fire Baptism - Administrator: Jesus - Element: Fire - Purpose judgment - Jesus gives the meaning Himself - He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt 3:12)

What's the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ?

For a formula to be universal it must work for all people, in all places, under all conditions.

Holy Spirit Baptism is the universal entry into the Body of Christ.

Why Acts 2:38 Is Not the Universal Formula

Acts 2:38 (repent, be baptized, receive the Spirit) was spoken: At a mandatory attend feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy, under Jewish covenant laws. To Israel only. Not one Gentile is among the 3,000 saved at Pentecost & Acts 10:45 proves this beyond dispute. Scripture never records a single Gentile being saved by the Acts 2:38 sequence.

Therefore: Acts 2 cannot be the universal salvation pattern.

Acts 10, The 1st Gentiles Saved & the Universal Pattern

Acts 10 Cornelius house these Gentiles HEARD the gospel Vs.34-44, BELEVED & thru FAITH ALONE, were baptized by Jesus with His forever (John 14:16) salvation‑sealing Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5)

Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Matt 9:4, Jn 6:64, Acts 1:24, Rev 2:23) eternally sealed them instantly.

This is the 1st time a Gentiles is saved & enters the Body of Christ, Jesus Himself establishes the pattern. Hear > Believe > Receive > Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

This is the New Testament universal initiation for Jew and Gentile alike into the Body of Christ.

Regarding the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ, I agree that it must work for all people in all places and times, and that Holy Spirit Baptism does that. The relationship of God’s HS with humans begins primitively when selfish but innocent babies attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience as they are able to understand what their parents deem to be right and wrong beliefs and behavior, which is normally well-developed by the age of eight or the stage of pre-pubescence, comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).

During this stage a soul’s saving relationship with God begins when the person becomes a truthseeker (cf. Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6), because God’s Spirit is Truth (1John 5:6), although the young soul may not realize it (Rom. 1:17). As a truthseeker at any time in history contemplates creation, Paul indicates that they will be able to discern God’s being and loving will in nature (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-15, Gal. 5:14) by means of what theologians call general revelation. In this regard it is good to plumb the depths of Gen. 1:1-3 describing the Spirit of God’s presence as God spoke creation into existence and connect it with John 1:1-3 saying the Word was in the beginning and through Him all things were made (cf. Acts 17:27-28).

When truthseekers realize that God has a moral requirement, if they worship Him they become like Abraham, and the relationship with God becomes personal (Rom. 4:1-25). Presumably God provides such believers the opportunity to learn the proto-gospel, so they may repent of sin and accept the pre-incarnate foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ (cf. Gen. 3:21), whether in the form of Abraham’s ram (Gen. 22:13) or Moses’ lamb (Exo. 12:21). At the moment of worship and saving faith like Abraham, the Spirit of Christ/God’s Holy Spirit enters the believer’s spiritual heart— again even though they may not realize it–because Paul taught that whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9).

Paul referred to Abrahamic faith as spiritual circumcision (Rom. 2:29, 4:3-12). Of course, partial knowledge of GW will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism and learning the full Gospel (Matt. 28:19-20). For those who died as pre-NT believers, this must occur in heaven (cf. 1Pet. 4:6). Again, if a moralist truthseeker (on the basis of general revelation) encounters God (perhaps via the OT), then he/she may believe or become a theist, like Abraham and Moses. If theists are taught the Gospel (NT), then they may choose to believe/accept Jesus as Christ. In both cases salvation is a gift/grace from God received by faith “from first to last" (Rom. 1:17).

With greater awareness because of learning the NT Gospel, when a truthseeker confesses Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9), the HS indwells the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5) and unites him/her with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:9)--which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8), baptism by the Spirit (Matt. 3:11/Mark 1:8/Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 1Cor. 12:13) and receiving the Spirit of adoption/sonship (Rom. 8:14-16). The outward evidence that someone was baptized by the HS (Rom. 5:5) and is Spirit-filled (Eph. 5:18) or walking with God is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 3:19, 4:13) or fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which is signified by "love" (Gal. 5:6). Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (John13:35, 1John 4:7-21), because divine love sums up the moral character of God (1John 4:7-8).

 

[timf]

Baptism = baptizo = immersion

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

For Christians there is only one baptism, that by the holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Aaron56]

Baptism = baptizo = immersion

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

For Christians there is only one baptism, that by the holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Yeah, our baptism into the Body of Christ, completed by the Holy Spirit is the only one that changes our identity. There are other baptisms: fire, into the Spirit performed by Christ from heaven, and water. But the baptism by the Spirit is the one we all share as members of Christ's body.

 

[FlyingDove]

Regarding the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ, I agree that it must work for all people in all places and times, and that Holy Spirit Baptism does that. The relationship of God’s HS with humans begins primitively when selfish but innocent babies attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience as they are able to understand what their parents deem to be right and wrong beliefs and behavior, which is normally well-developed by the age of eight or the stage of pre-pubescence, comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).

During this stage a soul’s saving relationship with God begins when the person becomes a truthseeker (cf. Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6), because God’s Spirit is Truth (1John 5:6), although the young soul may not realize it (Rom. 1:17). As a truthseeker at any time in history contemplates creation, Paul indicates that they will be able to discern God’s being and loving will in nature (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-15, Gal. 5:14) by means of what theologians call general revelation. In this regard it is good to plumb the depths of Gen. 1:1-3 describing the Spirit of God’s presence as God spoke creation into existence and connect it with John 1:1-3 saying the Word was in the beginning and through Him all things were made (cf. Acts 17:27-28).

When truthseekers realize that God has a moral requirement, if they worship Him they become like Abraham, and the relationship with God becomes personal (Rom. 4:1-25). Presumably God provides such believers the opportunity to learn the proto-gospel, so they may repent of sin and accept the pre-incarnate foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ (cf. Gen. 3:21), whether in the form of Abraham’s ram (Gen. 22:13) or Moses’ lamb (Exo. 12:21). At the moment of worship and saving faith like Abraham, the Spirit of Christ/God’s Holy Spirit enters the believer’s spiritual heart— again even though they may not realize it–because Paul taught that whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9).

Paul referred to Abrahamic faith as spiritual circumcision (Rom. 2:29, 4:3-12). Of course, partial knowledge of GW will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism and learning the full Gospel (Matt. 28:19-20). For those who died as pre-NT believers, this must occur in heaven (cf. 1Pet. 4:6). Again, if a moralist truthseeker (on the basis of general revelation) encounters God (perhaps via the OT), then he/she may believe or become a theist, like Abraham and Moses. If theists are taught the Gospel (NT), then they may choose to believe/accept Jesus as Christ. In both cases salvation is a gift/grace from God received by faith “from first to last" (Rom. 1:17).

With greater awareness because of learning the NT Gospel, when a truthseeker confesses Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9), the HS indwells the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5) and unites him/her with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:9)--which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8), baptism by the Spirit (Matt. 3:11/Mark 1:8/Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 1Cor. 12:13) and receiving the Spirit of adoption/sonship (Rom. 8:14-16). The outward evidence that someone was baptized by the HS (Rom. 5:5) and is Spirit-filled (Eph. 5:18) or walking with God is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 3:19, 4:13) or fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which is signified by "love" (Gal. 5:6). Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (John13:35, 1John 4:7-21), because divine love sums up the moral character of God (1John 4:7-8).

None of what you wrote interacts with the actual argument I presented. I wasn't discussing pre NT moral development, general revelation, Abrahamic faith, or how God dealt with people before the cross. My post was about the New Testament initiation into the Body of Christ, specifically the difference between the Acts 2 Jewish pattern & the Acts 10 universal pattern.

Acts 2 was Israel only under Mosaic covenant conditions. No Gentile was saved by that formula. Acts 10 is the 1st time Gentiles are saved & sealed by the Spirit & that Jesus Himself establishes the universal pattern: Hear > Believe > Receive > Sealed.

Your reply never addressed Acts 2, Acts 10, covenant audience, or the universal baptism of the Spirit. You shifted to a completely different topic. If you want to engage the actual argument, deal with the text &d the timing I presented: Acts 2 is not universal, Acts 10 is.

 

[FlyingDove]

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

The Samaritans were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

remission
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Here remission means forgiveness.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

baptized
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

Here it says water baptism is to wash away sins.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

baptism
baptisma
bap'-tis-mah
From G907; baptism (technically or figuratively): - baptism.

baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet).

Here it says water baptism does now save us.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

When we are water baptized we are baptized in to Jesus' death and if we do that we will rise to newness of life.

Jesus died, was buried, and rose and we repent, water baptized, receive the Spirit.

You cannot cut out the middle man.

Salvation is the same for all people which the Bible says there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

The Jews are not going to have a different method than the Gentiles.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

water
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.

Jesus said born of water and the Spirit.

NO WATER BAPTISM FOUND IN THE TEXT

John 3:1 Nicodemus “a ruler of the Jews” he wasn't confused about Jewish water purification rituals. He was confused about re-entering the womb (Jn 3:4).

Jn 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus immediately defines His own terms:

Verse 6, that which is ""born of the flesh is flesh"" & that which is ""born of the Spirit is spirit"" (Jn 3:6).

The context is natural birth & Spirit birth. Jesus clarifies by distinguishing physical birth Vs6 (a fetus is surrounded by water/amniotic fluid) from spiritual birth (regeneration by the Holy Spirit).

Jesus is not introducing water baptism. Jesus is distinguishing TWO BIRTHS!

 

[Edify]

IDK if very many know, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate thing in the Bible. Those who receive it (most of the time) are already saved.
It is not a thing directly related to salvation.

 

[Aaron56]

IDK if very many know, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate thing in the Bible. Those who receive it (most of the time) are already saved.
It is not a thing directly related to salvation.

Right.

If we consider that "baptism" simply means "immersion" it makes the distinctions between baptisms easier to understand.

In the Greek, baptizo was a common word: to wash a table one would first "baptizo" a cloth in water. The cloth and the water would be better suited to clean the table than either one alone. Religion made "baptizo" into a liturgical word. So much so, that the distinctions between baptisms were lost.

Immersion into the Holy Spirit is completed by Christ from heaven. This is a baptism of power.
Immersion into the Body of Christ is completed by the Holy Spirit. This is a baptism of identity.
Immersion into fire is also completed by Christ. This is a baptism of refinement.
Immersion into water is completed by the believers. This is a baptism signifying the death of one's lineage from Adam.

 

[FlyingDove]

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

The Samaritans were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

remission
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Here remission means forgiveness.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

baptized
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

Here it says water baptism is to wash away sins.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

baptism
baptisma
bap'-tis-mah
From G907; baptism (technically or figuratively): - baptism.

baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet).

Here it says water baptism does now save us.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

When we are water baptized we are baptized in to Jesus' death and if we do that we will rise to newness of life.

Jesus died, was buried, and rose and we repent, water baptized, receive the Spirit.

You cannot cut out the middle man.

Salvation is the same for all people which the Bible says there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

The Jews are not going to have a different method than the Gentiles.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

water
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.

Jesus said born of water and the Spirit.

John 3 NO WATER BAPTISM FOUND IN THE TEXT

This cannot be about SALVATION through water baptism because it is spoken before the cross, before Pentecost, before the Church & before Christian baptism even existed.

Jn 3:1 Nicodemus “a ruler of the Jews” he wasn't confused about Jewish water purification rituals. He was confused about re-entering the womb (Jn 3:4).

Jn 3:5 Except a man be BORN of water & BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

Jesus immediately defines His own terms:

Jn 3:6 that which is ""BORN of the FLESH is FLESH"" & that which is ""born of the Holy Spirit is spirit"". The context is natural birth & Spirit birth. Jesus clarifies by distinguishing physical birth (a fetus is surrounded by water/amniotic fluid) from spiritual birth (regeneration by the Holy Spirit).

Jesus is not introducing water baptism. Jesus is distinguishing TWO BIRTHS!

Question: ONLY items cited water & Spirit. ""BORN OF THE SPIRIT"" is clearly referencing the Holy Spirit. So then does water baptism make one born of flesh?

 

[GWH]

None of what you wrote interacts with the actual argument I presented. I wasn't discussing pre NT moral development, general revelation, Abrahamic faith, or how God dealt with people before the cross. My post was about the New Testament initiation into the Body of Christ, specifically the difference between the Acts 2 Jewish pattern & the Acts 10 universal pattern.

Acts 2 was Israel only under Mosaic covenant conditions. No Gentile was saved by that formula. Acts 10 is the 1st time Gentiles are saved & sealed by the Spirit & that Jesus Himself establishes the universal pattern: Hear > Believe > Receive > Sealed.

Your reply never addressed Acts 2, Acts 10, covenant audience, or the universal baptism of the Spirit. You shifted to a completely different topic. If you want to engage the actual argument, deal with the text &d the timing I presented: Acts 2 is not universal, Acts 10 is.

You - None of what you wrote [Regarding the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ, I agree that it must work for all people in all places and times, and that Holy Spirit Baptism does that.] interacts with the actual argument I presented.

Me- Not sure why you do not understand that I interacted by explaining how the HS related to people before the cross, which is needed in order for it to be "universal". Perhaps you want to amend your OP?:

You - What's the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ?
For a formula to be universal it must work for all people, in all places, under all conditions.
Holy Spirit Baptism is the universal entry into the Body of Christ.

 

[Blade]

If only it was that simple to just believe but so many do not believe in the Sweet sweet holy Spirit. They do not ask the Father for the Holy Spirit.. a promise only to believers. They read John 3:16-17 and believe in there heart and confess Him with their mouth (PRAISE GOD AMEN) but Luke 11:13... same GOD that said John 3:16-17 said Luke 11:13 ..same time period. I really lol sooooo happy no Internet back then.. no cell phones to text back for forth.. no confusion what so ever.

They just asked exactly like the NT.. do you want the holy Spirit? Sure yes. Sat down he only read scriptures and no (what that means, What Jesus was really saying) and read Luke 11:13..do you want the holy Spirit? yes again and he prayed one of the shortest prayers I have ever heard and stopped said "thats it you got it". Pure 100% faith. He truly with his heart believed if GOD said it.. you then ask. GOD will do what God said He would do. No one not one person there said a word. I just got up went to sit down and BAM tongues just came out. Just like the 120+ went in saved came out filled ...song.. were not drunk at you suppose were just filled with the HOLY GHOST!

I can say.. GOD as my witness it was like day and night. You shall receive power after.. its not power as man would think.. I have to say.. I don't understand this.. it never gets old.. never gets old. Never ever moment.. how? HAHA this hunger? You never get filled up.. always over flowing.. and something in side you .. You just have to tell others.. He is alive! I love love love music.. my poor wife haha.. I am 64 I feel really I do.. 20+ years old inside and the moment I hear that music singing about Him.. I have to sing.. I don't care where I am Walmart, mall I don't care.. it just swells up in side of you and .. haha I just closed my eyes here.. and thought..oooh want to praise praise praise Him forever.. this here.. good example.. I get carried away.. its this way 24/7. Yes live hits me like it hits you.. sickness tries to hit me.. flu what ever... I just know that I know I know what HE did on that Cross He rose I rose.. and by His strips I was healed.

Be it money, food, rent, family, friends, job.. you name it.. He supplies all my needs. With man its impossible but with GOD all things are possible. And.. greater is He that is in me then He that is in the world. I have His joy.. I have His peace, I have His strength, I have His armor.. I have the right (fall on face worship Him) to use that name above ever name. Peter and John...you look at us as if we did this by our own power.. that name faith in that name healed this man.

 

[FlyingDove]

Here it says water baptism does now save us.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

When we are water baptized we are baptized in to Jesus' death and if we do that we will rise to newness of life.

Jesus died, was buried, and rose and we repent, water baptized, receive the Spirit.

You cannot cut out the middle man.

Salvation is the same for all people which the Bible says there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

The Jews are not going to have a different method than the Gentiles.

 

[FlyingDove]

Romans 6:3 Misused Water-Baptism Text Detected & Here’s What the Passage Actually Teaches

Romans 6:3 does not be refer to water baptism, the entire chapter describes a Spirit-wrought union with Christ that water cannot accomplish. The word water appears ZERO times in the chapter & Paul never commands a ritual or ties any of these realities to human action. Instead, every key verse points to regeneration & spiritual transformation: being ""baptized INTO Christ"" (Vs3–4) is Paul's consistent In-Christ positional language, signifying union with His death & resurrection, the impartation of ""newness of life,"" which only the Holy Spirit gives. Being ""united with Him"" (Vs5) reflects a new identity, not a physical act. The ""old self crucified"" & being ""freed from sin"" (Vs6–7) describe internal transformation, not symbolic immersion. Counting oneself ""dead to sin & alive to God"" (Vs11–13). Living under grace rather than sin's dominion (Vs14) are the fruits of regeneration, not the effects of water

 

[FlyingDove]

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:20-21
Peter explicitly says he is speaking in antitype (symbol), not literal water saving. Antitype, technical term meaning: "a symbolic counterpart, a figure, a representation." He is telling you up front: "I'm speaking symbolically, not literally."

Noah was NOT saved by water > he was saved from water. Peter says: "8 souls were saved through water" > Not by water. The water was the judgment that killed the world. The ark (God's provision) saved them. So the water in the story represents judgment, not salvation.

Peter denies that he is talking about physical water: "not the removal of the filth of the flesh." That is the clearest possible way to say: "I am NOT talking about literal water washing your body." He removes water baptism from the equation before he even defines what he is talking about.

Peter defines the saving "baptism" as something internal, not external. Peter continues: "but the answer of a good conscience toward God." This is not water, it's not a ritual, it's not a physical act. This is an internal response of faith, the heart turning to God. Peter is describing conversion, not immersion.

Peter grounds the saving power in the resurrection, not in water. He finishes the sentence: "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." So the structure is: baptism (defined as a good conscience response to God) saves us, through the resurrection. Not through water, not through ritual, not through immersion. The saving agent is Christ s resurrection, not the baptistry.

There is no way to make this passage teach water regeneration without ignoring Peter's own clarifications.

Peter is using Noah's flood as a symbol. The water represented judgment, not salvation. The ark represented God's saving provision. The "baptism" that saves is not water (Peter denies that explicitly), but the inward appeal to God for a clean conscience > a faith response, made effective through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[FlyingDove]

IDK if very many know, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate thing in the Bible. Those who receive it (most of the time) are already saved.
It is not a thing directly related to salvation.

The only reason some believers in Acts received the Spirit after believing is because these events were one‑time entry inclusion markers into the New Covenant, where the apostles had to personally witness each new group's inclusion into the New Covenant - Jews (Acts 2), Samaritans (Acts 8), John's remnant (Acts 19) & finally Gentiles (Acts 10:44). These were not second blessings but apostolic confirmation events proving that every category of people was fully accepted by Christ & incorporated into the New Covenant. Once the last group - Gentiles, received the Holy Spirit instantly upon believing, the delays ended forever. The Lord Jesus Himself lays the foundation for the universal salvation pattern: hear > believe > receive the Spirit > sealed (Eph 1:13–14; Gal 3:2). There is no saved but not Holy Spirit‑baptized category in the New Testament.

 

[Mem]

My youngest had told me, being aware of my interest in such an event, that he had attended a church meeting. And he has continued to. But this past Sunday, his salvation came to mind, and I so wondered. Was he attending simply for the will of another? Did he have any interest in God in regard for himself? etc. And these thoughts continued into the next morning until I returned a text that I had left unanswered three days that read, "Thanks. I love you." and I thought I shouldn't have left that unanswered and wrote, "I love you first."

Then a few hours later he texted, "Btw I figured you'd like to know but I was saved and spoke to it with my own tongue in prayer yesterday."

I and I told him that, exactly, had come to my mind and,"...He must've been as excited about it as anyone and couldn't wait to tell me!"

 

[Edify]

The only reason some believers in Acts received the Spirit after believing is because these events were one‑time entry inclusion markers into the New Covenant, where the apostles had to personally witness each new group's inclusion into the New Covenant - Jews (Acts 2), Samaritans (Acts 8), John's remnant (Acts 19) & finally Gentiles (Acts 10:44). These were not second blessings but apostolic confirmation events proving that every category of people was fully accepted by Christ & incorporated into the New Covenant. Once the last group - Gentiles, received the Holy Spirit instantly upon believing, the delays ended forever. The Lord Jesus Himself lays the foundation for the universal salvation pattern: hear > believe > receive the Spirit > sealed (Eph 1:13–14; Gal 3:2). There is no saved but not Holy Spirit‑baptized category in the New Testament.

So you believe the baptism in/of the Holy Spirit is now immediate with salvation?
So what gifts were imparted to you? Nobody I know in Pentecostal churches including myself showed the Baptism until AFTER salvation.

 

[homwardbound]

John's Baptism - Administrator: John - Element: water - Purpose: repentance for Israel Only (Jn 1:31) - Temporary, preparatory. Ended: Functionally at Pentecost (Acts 2) & formally discontinued in Acts 19

Jesus Performs Two Baptisms

(1) Holy Spirit baptism - Administrator: Jesus - Element: the Holy Spirit - Purpose: salvation, new birth, union with Christ - Timing: Happens at conversion.

(2) Fire Baptism - Administrator: Jesus - Element: Fire - Purpose judgment - Jesus gives the meaning Himself - He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt 3:12)

What's the universal baptism initiation formula for entry into the Body of Christ?

For a formula to be universal it must work for all people, in all places, under all conditions.

Holy Spirit Baptism is the universal entry into the Body of Christ.

Why Acts 2:38 Is Not the Universal Formula

Acts 2:38 (repent, be baptized, receive the Spirit) was spoken: At a mandatory attend feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy, under Jewish covenant laws. To Israel only. Not one Gentile is among the 3,000 saved at Pentecost & Acts 10:45 proves this beyond dispute. Scripture never records a single Gentile being saved by the Acts 2:38 sequence.

Therefore: Acts 2 cannot be the universal salvation pattern.

Acts 10, The 1st Gentiles Saved & the Universal Pattern

Acts 10 Cornelius house these Gentiles HEARD the gospel Vs.34-44, BELEVED & thru FAITH ALONE, were baptized by Jesus with His forever (John 14:16) salvation‑sealing Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 5:5)

Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Matt 9:4, Jn 6:64, Acts 1:24, Rev 2:23) eternally sealed them instantly.

This is the 1st time a Gentiles is saved & enters the Body of Christ, Jesus Himself establishes the pattern. Hear > Believe > Receive > Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

This is the New Testament universal initiation for Jew and Gentile alike into the Body of Christ.

As said before the resurrected Son showed up in John 19:30 "It is Finished".what got finished?
Could that be Matthew 5:17, what he said he came to fulfill Law and Prophets about him?
Is that done by Son, where John claimed Jesus as the Messiah and when John water Baptized Jesus a dove landed on Jesus;s shoulder and a voice from Heaven claims Son as the Messiah! Then the testing in the desert, that Jesus would not given in to this world, and it's pleasures.

One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism
Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

therefore which Baptism saves Water or God's Spirit fro us to live new by?

Thank you for the post Brother

God loves us all, otherwise Son would not hav e gone to that cross willingly at all, to me at least, anyone else?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

1 Peter 3:20-21
Peter explicitly says he is speaking in antitype (symbol), not literal water saving. Antitype, technical term meaning: "a symbolic counterpart, a figure, a representation." He is telling you up front: "I'm speaking symbolically, not literally."

Noah was NOT saved by water > he was saved from water. Peter says: "8 souls were saved through water" > Not by water. The water was the judgment that killed the world. The ark (God's provision) saved them. So the water in the story represents judgment, not salvation.

Peter denies that he is talking about physical water: "not the removal of the filth of the flesh." That is the clearest possible way to say: "I am NOT talking about literal water washing your body." He removes water baptism from the equation before he even defines what he is talking about.

Peter defines the saving "baptism" as something internal, not external. Peter continues: "but the answer of a good conscience toward God." This is not water, it's not a ritual, it's not a physical act. This is an internal response of faith, the heart turning to God. Peter is describing conversion, not immersion.

Peter grounds the saving power in the resurrection, not in water. He finishes the sentence: "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." So the structure is: baptism (defined as a good conscience response to God) saves us, through the resurrection. Not through water, not through ritual, not through immersion. The saving agent is Christ s resurrection, not the baptistry.

There is no way to make this passage teach water regeneration without ignoring Peter's own clarifications.

Peter is using Noah's flood as a symbol. The water represented judgment, not salvation. The ark represented God's saving provision. The "baptism" that saves is not water (Peter denies that explicitly), but the inward appeal to God for a clean conscience > a faith response, made effective through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Our boy @tablet123 is a driveby oneness preacher. You most likely won’t get a reply. Debating and the trinity just aren’t his thing.