No living faith without works

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Nedsk said:
There's your problem, you think of being saved as an event. Btw I don't know if faith MUST be completed by works but Scripture says it is completed by works. James 2:22 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac in the altar?" If faith alone was sufficient, wouldn't it have made more sense for James to write:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by faith when he offered his son Isaiah at the altar?"
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Did I say it was an event? I asked a question. I have a few questions.

Why does Genesis 15:6 say Abraham was counted righteous when he believed, but James 2:21–23 speaks of him being justified when he offered Isaac many years later?

My original question: If faith is completed by works as James says, at what point would you say a person is actually saved?

How can someone know their faith is complete before they die?

What works completed the faith of the thief whom Jesus promised paradise to in Luke 23:42–43?
 
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Nedsk said:
It's not the only verse in the Bible i like but if it is, then its the only verse in the Bible you dont like.

What the words tell me is faith and works !are active together and that his (Abraham) faith was brought to completion by works. That's what the words mean. That's not interpretation. This is where deduction comes in again it's not interpretation. Faith was brought to completion which would tell us faith by itself can't be complete otherwise why say works brought faith to completion? How can something that is already complete be brought to completion? Why can't I take James at his word.othrr than you do like it because you believe the faith alone business.
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So much effort is put into explaining away what James wrote!
Just_A__Follower said:
Did I say it was an event? I asked a question. I have a few questions.

Why does Genesis 15:6 say Abraham was counted righteous when he believed, but James 2:21–23 speaks of him being justified when he offered Isaac many years later?

My original question: If faith is completed by works as James says, at what point would you say a person is actually saved?

How can someone know their faith is complete before they die?

What works completed the faith of the thief whom Jesus promised paradise to in Luke 23:42–43?
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Always asking the same questions.
Never arriving at a conclusion.
 
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Cameron143 said:
People without faith can appear to have good works, but they don't really. A lady can give a mite and have done a good work while others can give abundantly and it is not a good work. The motivation behind the action is important. Since it is impossible to please God apart from faith, your statement is false.
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So again you're suggesting that if an atheist saves anothers person life and do so because they dont think you should kill people, it's not "really" a good work because they dont have faith?
 
Just_A__Follower said:
Did I say it was an event? I asked a question. I have a few questions.

Why does Genesis 15:6 say Abraham was counted righteous when he believed, but James 2:21–23 speaks of him being justified when he offered Isaac many years later?

My original question: If faith is completed by works as James says, at what point would you say a person is actually saved?

How can someone know their faith is complete before they die?

What works completed the faith of the thief whom Jesus promised paradise to in Luke 23:42–43?
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You implied it, "...when exactly does a person become saved, before that completion or only after it?" The "become saved" suggests an event. It's not true that some people believe saying the magic incantation saves them? You might say we are saved by Jesus' death on the cross would you not?
 
Cameron143 said:
People without faith can appear to have good works, but they don't really. A lady can give a mite and have done a good work while others can give abundantly and it is not a good work. The motivation behind the action is important. Since it is impossible to please God apart from faith, your statement is false.
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(y)

WCF 16.7 Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God. And yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God.

See WCF for proof text
 
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BillyBob said:
(y)

WCF 16.7 Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God. And yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God.

See WCF for proof text
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So an extra biblical text
 
Nedsk said:
So again you're suggesting that if an atheist saves anothers person life and do so because they dont think you should kill people, it's not "really" a good work because they dont have faith?
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@Dino246 explained this to you. You can accept or reject the answer.
 
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Cameron143 said:
@Dino246 explained this to you. You can accept or reject the answer.
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You mean this

"While a “work” may be objectively “good”, the concept of “good works” in Scripture is those that are acceptable to God, and faith in Him is what makes works acceptable.

Works done from a desire to earn God’s acceptance, approval, or grace are not acceptable"

How could a work be "objectively" good but unacceptable to God? It's all double talk with you guys

If an atheist saved a person's life presumabmly it wouldn't be to "earn God's acceptance approval of grace" as they don't believe in God.
 
Cameron143 said:
On what basis do you say they were in God? What scripture?
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God didn't create them? They weren't intimately known to God and them to him? I keep forgetting you folks struggle with thinking. Who was closer to God than Adam and Eve?
 
Nedsk said:
You mean this

"While a “work” may be objectively “good”, the concept of “good works” in Scripture is those that are acceptable to God, and faith in Him is what makes works acceptable.

Works done from a desire to earn God’s acceptance, approval, or grace are not acceptable"

How could a work be "objectively" good but unacceptable to God? It's all double talk with you guys

If an atheist saved a person's life presumabmly it wouldn't be to "earn God's acceptance approval of grace" as they don't believe in God.
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Without faith, it is impossible to please God. No one without faith, regardless of how noble the action may seem, it remains unacceptable to God.
 
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Toknow said:
Yes. Sir.
Any excuse is good to avoid replying to Scripture!!
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*Sigh*

Don't be a twit. I'm not avoiding replying to Scripture, because our present discussion is not about Scripture! It's about YOU having made the accusation that another person was misusing Scripture without supporting your accusation with evidence. YOU are the one avoiding accountability here.
 
Nedsk said:
So you're saying if an atheist saved someones life, that would be an "objective" good but it wouldn't be "acceptable" to God? So given the history of Jews and Samaritans why would Jesus select the behavior of a Samaritan as an example of mercy over a priest or a Levite?
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I intensely dislike "So you're saying" statements because they put words in another person's mouth that they did not say.
 
Nedsk said:
You implied it, "...when exactly does a person become saved, before that completion or only after it?" The "become saved" suggests an event. It's not true that some people believe saying the magic incantation saves them? You might say we are saved by Jesus' death on the cross would you not?
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At some point one becomes saved. There is no halfway saved. So at which point is it, when one puts their faith in Christ or when one’s works make their faith complete?

My other question is about what scripture actually says regarding faith and works. How do you reconcile Genesis 15:6, where Abraham is counted righteous for believing, with James 2:21–23, where he’s justified later by offering Isaac? And what about the thief in Luke 23:42–43, who had no works yet was promised paradise?
 
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Just_A__Follower said:
At some point one becomes saved. There is no halfway saved. So at which point is it, when one puts their faith in Christ or when one’s works make their faith complete?

My other question is about what scripture actually says regarding faith and works. How do you reconcile Genesis 15:6, where Abraham is counted righteous for believing, with James 2:21–23, where he’s justified later by offering Isaac? And what about the thief in Luke 23:42–43, who had no works yet was promised paradise?
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So then once you're "saved" you no longer need works right? They become meaningless, correct? Your saved. A done deal. I dare say, completed.

As to your question to assume it needs reconciling is also to assume there is a conflict. What James does is correct the error of thinking faith alone saves us. There is no conflict james just completes the theology by reminding us Abrahams faith was brought to completion by his actions.

Ah yes the thief on the cross. That's your gotcha move right? Not really. I'll say it for the millionth time, salvation belongs to God alone and he can do with it what pleases just like owner of the vineyard in Matthews gospel. God doesn't need your approval or mine to give his salvation in full measure to whoever he wishes. It doesn't relieve you of your responsibilities.
 
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