Loss of salvation???

[Roger316]

Some think everything is a work.

If you could show me how having faith/believing is a work, it would be helpful.

Paul pitted faith/believing against works.

So faith is NOT a work, as taught by the NT

Ephesians 2:8 FAITH IS A GIFT.

When Paul argues against a "work" salvation, he is arguing against those who suggest that salvation depends on keeping the Law. He says that if justification is based on works, Justification is what is owed rather than based on Grace.

In my view, even faith in Jesus Christ can become a kind of “work” if a person misunderstands the nature of salvation. Throughout the history of Christendom, some evangelists have tried to frighten people into the kingdom with warnings like, “You are a sinner headed for fiery hell unless you get right with God and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.” When someone responds to that message by believing in Jesus merely to escape punishment, their “faith” becomes something they offer to God—a desperate act meant to avoid hell rather than a trust born from grace. In that case, faith is treated as a human contribution, a work performed to secure safety, rather than the Spirit‑given response to God’s mercy.

When Christians fixate on the warnings of Jesus—divorce them from His promises, His character, and His finished work—they can begin to imagine salvation as a kind of spiritual contract. In that framework, God threatens, we comply, and salvation becomes the result of our performance. The warnings are treated like the fine print of a legal agreement: “If you don’t do X, God won’t save you.” That naturally produces a transactional view of salvation, where the believer’s obedience or perseverance becomes the currency that keeps the deal intact.

If someone hears Jesus primarily as a stern judge issuing ultimatums, then the Christian life becomes a negotiation:

• “If I obey enough, God will accept me.”
• “If I keep myself faithful, God will keep His side of the bargain.”
• “If I fail, the deal is off.”

That is not grace. That is not new birth. That is not the gospel.
It’s a religious transaction dressed in Christian vocabulary.

And ironically, this mindset often arises in communities that sincerely want to take Jesus’ words seriously—but end up isolating His warnings from His heart, His cross, and His Spirit’s preserving work.

 

[Roger316]

The only MUST i ever use is this must:

A believer MUST obey God.

He is required to.

No other musts in the Chrsitian faith.

If Salvation is by Grace, why do you suggest that it depends on obedience?

 

[Roger316]

Roger,
let me explain something YOU will understand:

You believe in monergism
I believe in synergism

You are wrong about me, and what I believe. I don't believe in either monergism or synergism.

In order to be saved we:

1. believe in God
2. obey God

Sounds like a transactional view to me. You obey God to be saved. Therefore, if a man believes in God and obeys him, God owes him salvation.

I have never expressed the above.
It's not in my vocabulary.

It is in my vocabulary. You argue for a transactional faith, meaning you must believe and obey God to receive salvation. If you fall away, you lose your salvation. Thus, in your arguments you nullify God's grace.

Does He not want sons?


Romans 8:14-16
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Perhaps you don't read the scriptures you cite. But if you take another look, you will see that Paul defines the sons of God, not based on belief, or obedience, but based on whether a man or woman is being led by the Spirit, i.e. a relational salvation. Those whom God will save are those who have received the spirit of the adoption as sons by which we cry out "Abba Father", which is short hand for the complete thought.

“Abba, Father, all things are possible for You…”
(Mark 14:36)

A transactional mindset says:

• “God is a distant judge.”
• “I must perform to stay in His favor.”
• “My obedience keeps the deal alive.”

t Jesus reveals something entirely different: God is not a contract‑maker. He is a Father.
And not just His Father—He invites His disciples into the same relationship:

• “When you pray, say: Father…” (Luke 11:2)
• “Your Father knows what you need…” (Matt 6:8)
• “Your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)

The New Testament writers pick this up:

• Paul says the Spirit causes us to cry “Abba, Father” (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6).
• John says we are born of God, not hired by Him (John 1:12–13).
• Peter says we are begotten “according to His great mercy” (1 Pet 1:3).

In other words: The gospel is not a transaction—it’s an adoption.

But Jesus’ cry of “Abba” reveals the true nature of salvation:

• It is relational, not contractual.
• It is rooted in God’s initiative, not our performance.
• It is grounded in new birth, not fear‑driven compliance.

Those who over‑stress the warnings of Jesus often miss this relational center. They hear the Judge but not the Father. They hear the warnings but not the welcome.

 

[Genez]

Isn't deciding to believe a work?

One work does not equal to what constituted "works."
Works was a religious system!

Jesus proclaimed one single work that saves!

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

​

John 6:28-29​

 

[Genez]

So.....
No reply to my post to you no. 8762.

This says a lot.


No matter , those for whom I post have read the post even if YOU are unable to give
it a reply.

I just posted SCRIPTURE...
I did nothing with it.
No need for paragraphs to explain it.

It's just simply what the NT teaches.
We must endure to the end.

As to this ingnore idea:
I'm a mature person...I don't need to place members on ignore because I don't agree with them.

You can behave however you see fit to.
If you'd rather put me on ignore because you cannot defend your position...
that's fine with me.

You're funny.

 

[Roger316]

One work does not equal to what constituted "works."
Works was a religious system!

Yes, I understand, thanks. I was exploring the difference between a works-based system of justification and a faith-based system.

 

[Toknow]

When Paul argues against a "work" salvation, he is arguing against those who suggest that salvation depends on keeping the Law. He says that if justification is based on works, Justification is what is owed rather than based on Grace.

Guess it means what a person means by The Law.
I don't take anything for granted anymore.

Since you mentioned justificaiton...
I'll say that we are justified by faith alone.

In my view, even faith in Jesus Christ can become a kind of “work” if a person misunderstands the nature of salvation. Throughout the history of Christendom, some evangelists have tried to frighten people into the kingdom with warnings like, “You are a sinner headed for fiery hell unless you get right with God and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.” When someone responds to that message by believing in Jesus merely to escape punishment, their “faith” becomes something they offer to God—a desperate act meant to avoid hell rather than a trust born from grace. In that case, faith is treated as a human contribution, a work performed to secure safety, rather than the Spirit‑given response to God’s mercy.

Is that faith?
IF they have faith in God...it doesn't matter if it's out of fear or out of love.

Again, here's what saves a person according to the NT:

1. Belief in God
2. Obedience to God

Some person might fear God...
that is not reason for them to be hell-bound.

When Christians fixate on the warnings of Jesus—divorce them from His promises, His character, and His finished work—they can begin to imagine salvation as a kind of spiritual contract. In that framework, God threatens, we comply, and salvation becomes the result of our performance. The warnings are treated like the fine print of a legal agreement: “If you don’t do X, God won’t save you.” That naturally produces a transactional view of salvation, where the believer’s obedience or perseverance becomes the currency that keeps the deal intact.

Roger,
however a person comes to believe in God is between them and God.
It's not for you or me to declare that we can only be saved if we love God a very specific way or if we don't fear Him.

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10:13

I'm not going to try to improve on what Paul taught.

If someone hears Jesus primarily as a stern judge issuing ultimatums, then the Christian life becomes a negotiation:

• “If I obey enough, God will accept me.”
• “If I keep myself faithful, God will keep His side of the bargain.”
• “If I fail, the deal is off.”

That is not grace. That is not new birth. That is not the gospel.
It’s a religious transaction dressed in Christian vocabulary.

It's still grace.
It's ALWAYS God's grace that calls us.
It's always God's grace that saves a sinner.
God saved us while we were yet sinners. Romans 5:8

However, your item no. 1 is not correct:
You posted:

• "“If I obey enough, God will accept me.”"

And ironically, this mindset often arises in communities that sincerely want to take Jesus’ words seriously—but end up isolating His warnings from His heart, His cross, and His Spirit’s preserving work.

We cannot isolate Jesus' warnings from His love, His cross.
Jesus/God is a package deal.
Jesus warns us because He loves us.

And the Holy Spirit will preserve us only IF we want Him to.

 

[Toknow]

If Salvation is by Grace, why do you suggest that it depends on obedience?

Because God demands obedience.
Jesus left us with many commands.
If we have faith,
If we believe,
we will be obedient.

Jesus said that not everyone who cries LORD LORD will go to heaven,
but those who do the will of the Father.
Matthew 7:21

 

[Toknow]

You are wrong about me, and what I believe. I don't believe in either monergism or synergism.

Hmmm.
Very interesting.

So what do you believe Roger??
We do keep making up our own theology.
Your reply will be most interesting since I can think of no other ism.
(that doesn't mean there isn't one).

Sounds like a transactional view to me. You obey God to be saved. Therefore, if a man believes in God and obeys him, God owes him salvation.

It is in my vocabulary. You argue for a transactional faith, meaning you must believe and obey God to receive salvation. If you fall away, you lose your salvation. Thus, in your arguments you nullify God's grace.

Actually, I did NOT argue for a tranactinal faith.
I even posted scripture about how we're God's children/son.

Did you happen to see that post?

Perhaps you don't read the scriptures you cite. But if you take another look, you will see that Paul defines the sons of God, not based on belief, or obedience, but based on whether a man or woman is being led by the Spirit,

OK.
So if I'm being led by the spirit....
will I be obedient or disobedient to God?

And I DO read the scriptures I cite.

Perhaps you can tell me which one I misread?

Paul spoke about behavior to please God in every one of his letters.

Now, it seems to me that you're not reading my posts well,,,
so I WILL post scripture for the above but only after you ask.
You may miss it otherwise.

i.e. a relational salvation. Those whom God will save are those who have received the spirit of the adoption as sons by which we cry out "Abba Father", which is short hand for the complete thought.

“Abba, Father, all things are possible for You…”
(Mark 14:36)

Wow wee kazowee.
I do believe I posted that very passage.
if not....some very close to what it states.

Yes sir,,,more than one verse.
You must have missed that post.

A transactional mindset says:

• “God is a distant judge.”
• “I must perform to stay in His favor.”
• “My obedience keeps the deal alive.”

t Jesus reveals something entirely different: God is not a contract‑maker. He is a Father.
And not just His Father—He invites His disciples into the same relationship:

• “When you pray, say: Father…” (Luke 11:2)
• “Your Father knows what you need…” (Matt 6:8)
• “Your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)

The New Testament writers pick this up:

• Paul says the Spirit causes us to cry “Abba, Father” (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6).
• John says we are born of God, not hired by Him (John 1:12–13).
• Peter says we are begotten “according to His great mercy” (1 Pet 1:3).

In other words: The gospel is not a transaction—it’s an adoption.

But Jesus’ cry of “Abba” reveals the true nature of salvation:

• It is relational, not contractual.
• It is rooted in God’s initiative, not our performance.
• It is grounded in new birth, not fear‑driven compliance.

Those who over‑stress the warnings of Jesus often miss this relational center. They hear the Judge but not the Father. They hear the warnings but not the welcome.

I do resent that YOU feel you can tell ME what kind of relationship I have with God.

ESPECIALLY after I explained to you that any relationship with God is relational.
(a brand new idea...
relational
transactional
what will be next?)

It seems kind of dangerous to discuss with you.
You don't seem to understand my posts.

You're very good at copying and pasting however.

 

[Toknow]

One work does not equal to what constituted "works."
Works was a religious system!

Jesus proclaimed one single work that saves!

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

​

John 6:28-29​

Do you understand ANY verse in the NT?

Sure doesn't look like it if you think the above means what you THINK it means.

 

[Kroogz]

What salvation do we lose exactly if we stop believing and what exactly are we not believing to see that loss materialize?

When we are saved we are made alive spiritually, given to Christ and raised to sit in the heavenly realms, indwelt bodily and sealed by the Spirit. All of that is what God does. (there is more He does but that is enough for the purpose of this conversation) How do we undo it? Or, why would God go to all that trouble knowing we would stop believing Him and He would have to undo His work?

I know you want to look at and analyze the Greek but I don't have the luxury of knowing Greek. I can only think in terms of common sense according to what is written in the plain English. This doesn't mean I don't want to look at the Greek with you and I'm always more than happy to try and put aside any preconceived theologies to be as honest with the text as possible.

We agree we must choose but from what exactly is it one walks away? Look at Hebrews 6. If there was ever a time to think one could lose their salvation it would be there yet it is not said it is impossible to save them again, it says it is impossible to change their minds. Change their minds about what? The Gospel isn't included in the elementary principles listed at the beginning of the chapter so have they changed their minds about that or have they got confused as to how that Gospel should be applied and in doing so have forfeited the blessings that come from living life as the Lord intended. The writer likens it to an analogy of the land further down (v.7&8). It is the production of the land that gets destroyed, not the land itself.

I looked at your post #8702 to @Kroogz and note you said:

What makes you think you can walk away? Do you have a verse that sates plainly that our failing to walk in fellowship with the Lord can cause the loss of the salvation from the penalty of sin God has gifted us? If so, I think that is the verse we should be looking at.

Walk away from what?I know you know.

The loss of salvation crowd Wiggles "loss of salvation" into walking away, falling from Grace, leaving the faith....ECT.

We were bought with a price( The Lord Jesus Christs life, death and resurrection) we are not our own.

It gets old and repeated.......we CANNOT lose salvation(John 5:24) but we can lose rewards,inheritance, blessings, reign and rank.



Secure in our salvation(acts 16:31), but our "placing" in His Kingdom depends on our choices.

2 Tim 2~~ 11 The statement is trustworthy:

For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

If we deny Him, He will also deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Eph 5:30
because we are parts of His body.
​

 

[Kroogz]

One work does not equal to what constituted "works."
Works was a religious system!

Jesus proclaimed one single work that saves!

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

​

John 6:28-29​

The predetermined plan of God..........The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for all. Acts 16:31, John 3:16.

The calvies think believing is boastful and the Armins Boast about belief.

@sawdust still has the million dollar question.

 

[Roger316]

Guess it means what a person means by The Law.
I don't take anything for granted anymore.

Since you mentioned justificaiton...
I'll say that we are justified by faith alone.

I agree with this.

Is that faith?
IF they have faith in God...it doesn't matter if it's out of fear or out of love.

Yes, it matters. If a man reacts out of fear, he is double-minded. His motives aren't pure. And his faith wasn't and act of free will; he was being manipulated.

It's still grace.
It's ALWAYS God's grace that calls us.
It's always God's grace that saves a sinner.
God saved us while we were yet sinners. Romans 5:8

Some Arminian Denominations believe in a theological position called "Prevenient Grace." It teaches that God did everything possible to save someone, including providing the scriptures, preaching the gospel, and having Jesus die on a cross. But since Freedom of the Will is inviolable, God's grace goes no further.

It seems like you probably believe this. But the Biblical view is that God's grace goes further than that. God’s grace does not merely awaken the possibility of faith; it accomplishes the entire saving work from beginning to end. Prevenient grace suggests God restores a neutral ability to choose, but Scripture consistently portrays His grace as effectual, powerful, and life‑giving—raising the dead, opening blind eyes, giving a new heart, and ensuring perseverance. The decisive movement is not our response but God’s action: He doesn’t just make salvation possible; He brings His people all the way home. His grace doesn’t stop at the threshold of human will—it transforms the will itself, securing the very faith and endurance it commands.

And the Holy Spirit will preserve us only IF we want Him to.

First of all, the Holy Spirit does more than preserve us. God gives us a Spirit of Christ who says, "Your will be done." It follows, then, that such a person would always want the Holy Spirit to preserve him or her.

Why wouldn't we want him to preserve us?

 

[Roger316]

Because God demands obedience.

Of course he does. But first, obedience isn't a requirement for salvation. And Second, Obedience follows naturally from the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus left us with many commands.
If we have faith,
If we believe,
we will be obedient.

Not necessarily. We all fail morally. We are all sinners.

Jesus said that not everyone who cries LORD LORD will go to heaven,
but those who do the will of the Father.
Matthew 7:21

That's right. And according to Paul, God chooses to grant the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is dedicated to doing God's will.

 

[Roger316]

Hmmm.
Very interesting.

So what do you believe Roger??
We do keep making up our own theology.
Your reply will be most interesting since I can think of no other ism.
(that doesn't mean there isn't one).

Read my posts. You will see what I believe. Stop trying to fit me into one of your false boxes.

Actually, I did NOT argue for a tranactinal faith.
I even posted scripture about how we're God's children/son.

Well, if you believe that we are sons of God, then how can you talk about losing salvation? You can't have it both ways. Either a man is not a son of God, in which case he was never saved, or he is a son of God and he can't lose his salvation.

Paul spoke about behavior to please God in every one of his letters.

Of course.

Now, it seems to me that you're not reading my posts well,,,
so I WILL post scripture for the above but only after you ask.
You may miss it otherwise.



Wow wee kazowee.
I do believe I posted that very passage.
if not....some very close to what it states.

Maybe you did, but didn't understand it. If you understood Paul's point, then you wouldn't ask if someone could lose is salvation because that passage says no.

I do resent that YOU feel you can tell ME what kind of relationship I have with God.

That was never my intent.

 

[Genez]

Yes, I understand, thanks. I was exploring the difference between a works-based system of justification and a faith-based system.

Believing on the Son IS FAITH.

It is a work that reveals that faith has taken root and is alive.

 

[Kroogz]

Of course he does. But first, obedience isn't a requirement for salvation.

Obedience comes from the filling and walking in the Spirit.......If we are not saved, we cannot be obedient.

If we lose salvation, Christ crucified becomes foolish again, the Spirit leaves us and we can no longer be obedient.....SILLY!!

Heb 6:6 , Ironically proves eternal security for the loss of salvation crowd.

 

[Kroogz]

That's right. And according to Paul, God chooses to grant the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is dedicated to doing God's will.

God chooses to grant the indwelling of the Holy Spirit......to all who choose to believe. Acts 16:31, John 3:16

God saves and indwells believers.

 

[Roger316]

Believing on the Son IS FAITH.

It is a work that reveals that faith has taken root and is alive.

In your view, when does salvation take place?

 

[Roger316]

Obedience comes from the filling and walking in the Spirit.......If we are not saved, we cannot be obedient.

If we lose salvation, Christ crucified becomes foolish again, the Spirit leaves us and we can no longer be obedient.....SILLY!!

Heb 6:6 , Ironically proves eternal security for the loss of salvation crowd.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on Hebrews 6:6