Loss of salvation???

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HEB 6:6 is describing your belief and theory. You are saved. But you have fallen away From the Lord Jesus Christ. John 5:24

It is impossible to "re-save" you. Because it is one and done.

I completely agree it is talking about losing salvation.........It cannot and won't be lost.......If we fall away from Christ, we most certainly will end up with a "loss of salvation" theory. Crucifying Christ again and putting Him to open shame.

Rom 8:16~~The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Fall away from Him?........ We will begin to ask.....Are we really children of God?

Hebrews 6:4-6 was a report to the Jerusalem church concerning the sad state of certain Jewish believers in Christ.

Instead of standing on the atonement of Christ?
They reverted to their old way of thinking which was under the Law of Moses.

They had come to know salvation.
"who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age..."

Yet, they had been Jews so strongly dedicated to following the law, that they had made the law into their god.

It says it is impossible to bring them back to repentance.
Not, impossible to bring them back to salvation.

Repentance means to have a change of mind.
To accept correction.

Those Jews, like Catholics who refuse to give up Mary worship, were refusing to accept the atonement of the Cross.

The animal sacrifices under the law had been teaching tools for Jews to learn the principles for atonement.
So, when the Cross finally came? It could become an easy change in thinking to see that what the animal sacrifices
taught about, but could not fulfill and put an end to their need as the Cross does.

In effect? Those Jews continuing in the animal sacrifices were making a mockery of the Cross of Jesus!

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Their stubbornness caused them to became spiritually retarded.
Like cutting oxegen off from the brain for too long.
Ever try reasoning with a retarded person who was doing something they did not want to stop doing?
It was impossible to achieve success at that stage.

So? Though these Jewish believers were saved?
They were going to fail in having God bestow His blessings upon them.
For, to become eligible for God's blessings that one needs to be walking in the Spirit and truth to receive.

That is why the writer of Hebrews told the readers to stop trying to change them, and to move on to the blessings that accompany salvation for the faithful believer.
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Hebrews 6:7-8​

That burning does not refer to Hell. For this is speaking about those who entered salvation.
That burning they would face is to be seen in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,
straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be
revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work
which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned,
he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

See it come together now?

Hebrews 6 was not about a loss of salvation.
But, a loss of rewards which will be revealed after their works were tested by fire!


For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10

Their works will be burned! Not the person!

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss (of reward);
but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
grace and peace ........
 
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I agree with this.

Yes, it matters. If a man reacts out of fear, he is double-minded. His motives aren't pure. And his faith wasn't and act of free will; he was being manipulated.

Some Arminian Denominations believe in a theological position called "Prevenient Grace." It teaches that God did everything possible to save someone, including providing the scriptures, preaching the gospel, and having Jesus die on a cross. But since Freedom of the Will is inviolable, God's grace goes no further.
Prevenient grace is that grace that is available to every man.
it is just enough grace so that each person can be aware that there is a being higher than they are
and that this being is called God.

Prevenient grace is what Paul speaks of in

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so
that they are without excuse.

Man will have no excuse before God because everyone has had the possibility of knowing Him.

God has also used other ways...what you've stated above.



It seems like you probably believe this. But the Biblical view is that God's grace goes further than that. God’s grace does not merely awaken the possibility of faith; it accomplishes the entire saving work from beginning to end. Prevenient grace suggests God restores a neutral ability to choose, but Scripture consistently portrays His grace as effectual, powerful, and life‑giving—raising the dead, opening blind eyes, giving a new heart, and ensuring perseverance. The decisive movement is not our response but God’s action: He doesn’t just make salvation possible; He brings His people all the way home. His grace doesn’t stop at the threshold of human will—it transforms the will itself, securing the very faith and endurance it commands.
You went from stating that our free will in inviolable
to stating that God does everything...

That's monergism...

The NT teaches synergism.
We must cooperate with God for our salvation.


First of all, the Holy Spirit does more than preserve us. God gives us a Spirit of Christ who says, "Your will be done." It follows, then, that such a person would always want the Holy Spirit to preserve him or her.

Why wouldn't we want him to preserve us?
there are different reasons why persons fall away and the NT does list some.

TRIBULATION
SORRY FOR HAVING ACCEPTED GOD
A SINFUL LIFE
NO FRUIT, NO TRANSFORMATON
A DESIRE FOR THE WORLD

There are verses for each of the above.
Sorry. no time...they could be furnished in the morning.

The Holy Spirit DOES NOT PRESERVE US.
The Holy Spirit helps us to be preserved.

You SAY you believe in free will....
but your statements do not show this.
 
Hebrews 6:4-6 was a report to the Jerusalem church concerning the sad state of certain Jewish believers in Christ.

Instead of standing on the atonement of Christ?
They reverted to their old way of thinking which was under the Law of Moses.

They had come to know salvation.
"who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age..."

Yet, they had been Jews so strongly dedicated to following the law, that they had made the law into their god.

It says it is impossible to bring them back to repentance.
Not, impossible to bring them back to salvation.

Repentance means to have a change of mind.
To accept correction.

Those Jews, like Catholics who refuse to give up Mary worship, were refusing to accept the atonement of the Cross.

The animal sacrifices under the law had been teaching tools for Jews to learn the principles of atonement.
So, when the Cross finally came it could become an easy change in thinking to see that what the animal sacrifices
taught about, but could not fulfill and put an end to their need.

In effect? Those Jews continuing in the animal sacrifices were making a mockery of the Cross of Jesus!

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Their stubbornness caused them to became spiritually retarded.
Like cutting oxegen off from the brain for too long.
Ever try reasoning with a retarded person who was doing something they did not want to stop doing?
It was impossible to achieve success at that stage.

So? Though these Jewish believers were saved?
They were going to fail in having God bestow His blessings upon them.
For, to become eligible for God's blessings that one needs to be walking in the Spirit and truth to receive.

That is why the writer of Hebrews told the readers to stop trying to change them, and to move on to the blessings that accompany salvation for the faithful believer.
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Hebrews 6:7-8​

That burning does not refer to Hell. For this is speaking about those who entered salvation.
That burning they would face is to be seen in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,
straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be
revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work
which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned,
he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
See it come together now?
Hebrews 6 was not about a loss of salvation.
But, a loss of rewards which will be revealed after their works were tested by fire!


For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:10
Their works will be burned! Not the person!

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss (of reward);
but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
grace and peace ........
The first part of your post is absolutely correct.
(did not read the rest)

However, they still FELL AWAY.

You neglected to post the FALLEN AWAY part of the verses:


Hebrews 6.6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 and then have
fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


The Jews FELL AWAY from THE FAITH and went back to The Law.
They tried, but couldn't due for the reason you stated.


They looked back:


Luke 9:62
62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
 
I'm attempting to remain in the Text looking at Scriptures and not just discussing overall theories. I assume everyone knows that there are different interpretations of Scriptures resulting in OSAS and in Loss theories.

In the John6:37-40 verses which I showed the basic structure and some of the wording of, I pointed out one place where OSAS and Loss camps diverge. Some of you don't seem to think anything of such things, but things like these are where the different theories came from - the theories we've been taught from and have chosen to believe as making sense to us for whatever reasoning we've used to determine what we think is correct. And one person's common sense is another person's nonsense.

I do have the blessing of being able to analyze the Greek, so it's where I look for answers. Some others here have seen in English and other translations - and from history - that there are definite reasons to reject OSAS. As long as these reasons exist I'm working in the Text at the most precise level I can, responding to textual issues,I read or see, and trying to stay out of the petty bs which is rampant here - some of it is mind-boggling. Actually, at this point I see no reason to even accept OSAS as something that needs to be disproven - rather it needs to be proven.

What makes me think we can walk away?
  • We have volition.
  • I don't think God wants His volitional creature He created in His likeness to be non-volitional.
  • I don't think God tested the volition of the man and the woman in the Garden and allowed all the destruction that ensued for no ultimate reason.
  • We have a complex Text written in a very old language that we're still learning things about and debating.
  • There is precision in this language that is well-beyond that of English that most of us are dealing from.
  • We discussed things like the perfect tense in Eph2:8 that some of you were taught means OSAS, which in itself it does not do. If you were taught that, then you were taught error.
  • We've briefly discussed the conditional clauses such as the one posted in Heb3:14 which is stated emphatically in a form that does not provide assurance and we have seen in some of the comments how some take these as simply being guidelines and pastoral rather than them saying there is actual potential for failure, which the conditional structure says there is. And there's another issue in that verse I didn't see anyone even bring up.
  • In John6 the language shifts from Jesus not losing from things given to Him from the Father, to Jesus not forcing out individuals who come toward/to Him. Jesus not forcing out simply does not say someone by his own volition cannot apostatize. Nor does it say something else I'm not even going to bring up yet because I get enough flack as it is. Again, we're dealing with a precise language written with precision. There are plenty of ways such things could be stated that would make the issue very clear one way or another. When it's not, I question why.
  • You ask me if I have a verse that says Loss. Do you have one that says OSAS? I'm willing to look at anything methodically and to tell anyone what I see and don't see in the language. Eph2:8 perfect tense doesn't say OSAS. Heb3:14 I see as warning and not as pastoral comforting. John6:37-40 I don't see anyone proving OSAS in the sense that man cannot volitionally walk away - in fact all I see is the assurance of our Lord that He will not force a man who comes toward Him to leave.

Please explain to me from the Greek why the all that is given to Christ in the following verse does not include people and if it does, why are they the exception to being lost.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 
Of course he does. But first, obedience isn't a requirement for salvation. And Second, Obedience follows naturally from the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Apparently, since you got 3 likes for stating that we are not required to obey God....
it seems that some on this thread believe it's OK to disobey God.

Obedience is required for salvation.

JESUS said so:

Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


Jesus said we are to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, along with other commands....
Those who do NOT DO as Jesus commanded :


Matthew 25:45-46
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Not necessarily. We all fail morally. We are all sinners.
Strike Two....

you state that we are not to obey GOD.


That's right. And according to Paul, God chooses to grant the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is dedicated to doing God's will.
Roger...you can believe your calvinist ideology....

I'll just say this:
IF the Holy Spirit is indwelling and dedicated to doing God's will...

then I certainly hope that you give full responsibility to the Holy Spirit when a person sins.
 
Read my posts. You will see what I believe. Stop trying to fit me into one of your false boxes.
Oops.
You sound upset.
You're reformed and you know it.
Are you embarrased by it?

Well, if you believe that we are sons of God, then how can you talk about losing salvation? You can't have it both ways. Either a man is not a son of God, in which case he was never saved, or he is a son of God and he can't lose his salvation.
Do you read the NT?
Do you read ONLY the parts about how we are chidren of God?
I believe you've missed all the parts where it teaches that salvation can be lost.

And this WAS NEVER SAVED bs is really getting old.

IF THEY WERE NEVER SAVED...

then dear sir...

EVEN YOU CANNOT KNOW IF YOU'RE REALLY SAVED.

Of course.

Maybe you did, but didn't understand it. If you understood Paul's point, then you wouldn't ask if someone could lose is salvation because that passage says no.

That was never my intent.
I think I understand Paul just fine.

I understand Calvin really fine too.

But I prefer to follow Jesus.
 
I was trying to help you to help others understand that the Hebrews text has an objective meaning, one which Paul, the author, meant and that just like you and I don't give up out of frustration with all the alternatives out there, you and I look at the text objectively to see what the author means to say.

Well, I have often wondered if Hebrews 6:6 should be understood as a hypothetical statement based on what he says in Hebrews 6:9. I haven't decided yet.

I always imagined that Paul was writing to a large audience of Hebrews, making his case for why it was fitting for the Messiah to be a human man, to those among them who are beginning to have doubts about the Gospel. Perhaps they are getting pressure from the Sanhedrin or another source. I don't know. That was strictly speculative.

Paul's conditional statement doesn't read as if it were already actualized. like it remained theoretical or hypothetical for his audience. I could be wrong.

No, I believe an entirely different and relatively new system developed by a Modern Biblical Philosopher, Dr. John A Crabtree. He wrote a book called "The Most Real Being" arguing for Divine Determinism based on God's nature as a transcendent being.

Even so, I would prefer to table that discussion and remain focused on the scriptures and how we can help the others learn how to study the Bible for themselves. I very much appreciate your views and discussions on the Greek grammar. Thanks for that.
YOU are helping others to learn how to read the bible for themselves?
Egotism.
Pride.
The two sins that lead to all other sins.

And as to Hebrews 6:9

why not jump down to 6:11 that might be of help to you.

And 6:4 is NOT hypothetical.....
and you'd like some christians to put themselves in YOUR hands?

IN THE CASE OF THOSE
specific persons are being addressed.

AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY....
can't take it, can you?


Ruins your reformed theology.

or

The Holy Spirit is doing a REALLY bad job of it.
 
HEB 6:6 is describing your belief and theory. You are saved. But you have fallen away From the Lord Jesus Christ. John 5:24

It is impossible to "re-save" you. Because it is one and done.

I completely agree it is talking about losing salvation.........It cannot and won't be lost.......If we fall away from Christ, we most certainly will end up with a "loss of salvation" theory. Crucifying Christ again and putting Him to open shame.

Rom 8:16~~The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Fall away from Him?........ We will begin to ask.....Are we really children of God?
I'll repeat....

think this over:

If your theory that THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH
is correct....

Then NO ONE can be sure of their salvation.

And I don't have a belief or theory...
I post scripture.

So far none has been posted back...which means there isn't any to support YOUR belief and theory.

See, what you believe or theorize is irrelevant...

what is relevant is what the NT teaches.


Jesus said we coud LOSE OUR SALT and then be useless except for being trampled upon.
We WERE salty...

but then we lost our saltiness.
We are no longer salty.



Matthew 7:13
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how * can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.



I think it's a good idea to learn from Jesus.
 
The first part of your post is absolutely correct.
(did not read the rest)

However, they still FELL AWAY.

You neglected to post the FALLEN AWAY part of the verses:


Hebrews 6.6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 and then have
fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


The Jews FELL AWAY from THE FAITH and went back to The Law.
They tried, but couldn't due for the reason you stated.


They looked back:


Luke 9:62
62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."


Grace is invisible power from God granted to humble believers to do His will.
Enabling power, as to make them able to think and function in a way of integrity with knowing accurate understanding.

When some fall away from God's grace...
It is because they became proud, and became cut off from God's grace.


James 4:6-7​
But He gives more grace.
Therefore, He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
 
Salvation cannot be lost. If it appears to be "lost", then such a person is either never saved, or his work is unworthy, what's lost is his reward in heaven. You can't lose something you've never had in the first place.

“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matt. 18:18)
Did the ungrateful servant lose his forgiveness or did it just appear that he was forgiven?
 
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Grace is invisible power from God granted to humble believers to do His will.
Enabling power, as to make them able to think and function in a way of integrity with knowing accurate understanding.

When some fall away from God's grace...
It is because they became proud, and became cut off from God's grace.
Yes sir.
This is one of the reasons one could fall away.

It seems to me that the humble know how much they need God.
You'll find this in the beatitudes, Matthew 5.

They are humble enough to know that they are to obey God.

Another member just stated TWO TIMES that it's not necessary to obey God.

Yes. I'd say that is egotism and pride.
Not humble at all.

BTW,,,you never do post any scripture to uphold your idea that salvation cannot be lost.
No matter.


James 4:6-7​
But He gives more grace.
Therefore, He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Yes sir.
I like the SUBMIT TO GOD part.
We should all do this.
 
Did the ungrateful servant lose his forgiveness or did it just appear that he was forgiven?
Lamar...
I don't know why some keep bringing up this idea that if someone falls away they were never saved to begin with.

I give several passages to kill this idea...
but it does no good to those that do not hear.

Do these posters realize that if the person falling away
WAS NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH

it means that none of us can be certain of our salvation.

Any one of us could be that person that is not "REALLY" believing.

It would be impossible for anyone to know they are saved...

Just would like to pass along this idea.
 
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Salvation cannot be lost. If it appears to be "lost", then such a person is either never saved, or his work is unworthy, what's lost is his reward in heaven. You can't lose something you've never had in the first place.

“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matt. 18:18)
Oh my gosh.

Do you know what it means to bind and loose?
You really should find out.

And if you're wrong about THAT
perhaps you could be wrong about forfeiture of salvation too?


Please explain how the following persons WERE NEVER SAVED.
Thanks.


2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."



Peter even states that they RETURNED TO THEIR VOMIT...AND RETURNED TO THE MIRE.



Here's another passage.
These also were saved and then became lost....


Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,


6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
 
BTW,,,you never do post any scripture to uphold your idea that salvation cannot be lost.
No matter.

In the past I have posted plenty of Scripture.

But with you? No.
Because I have seen what you keep rejecting with others ....

Why should I care more about your soul than you do?
It's your responsibility.
 
In the past I have posted plenty of Scripture.

But with you? No.
Because I have seen what you keep rejecting with others ....

Why should I care more about your soul than you do?
It's your responsibility.
What is FALSE will continue to be rejected.

Fact is Genez

You have no supporting scripture....

and you dislike how I exegete verses to show how they DO NOT MEAN what you THINK they mean.

So, yes, I don't blame you from staying away.

Just keep posting to your buddies....talk among yourselves
that's much safer.

However, I will be here to correct your mistaken theology.
 
In the past I have posted plenty of Scripture.
PS

NOT to me you haven't.




But with you? No.
Because I have seen what you keep rejecting with others ....

Why should I care more about your soul than you do?
It's your responsibility.
Those who teach obedience to God are protecting their soul.

Those opposed to obeying God are putting their soul in danger.
 
Oh my gosh.

Do you know what it means to bind and loose?
You really should find out.

And, so should you really find out!

Keep in mind.
Jesus was teaching as a rabbi would teach Jewish disciples.

Binding and loosing was Jewish thinking.
Jesus was delegating authority to his disciples that Jews called Hallakah.
Under Judaism, rabbis were granted authority to make rules and regulations that were not directly covered
under the Law of Moses. Those rules and regulations for the community became a system called, Hallakah.

What the disciples would bind on earth?
God would honor their word, and bind in heaven.
 
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What is FALSE will continue to be rejected.

Fact is Genez

You have no supporting scripture....

and you dislike how I exegete verses to show how they DO NOT MEAN what you THINK they mean.

So, yes, I don't blame you from staying away.

Just keep posting to your buddies....talk among yourselves
that's much safer.

However, I will be here to correct your mistaken theology.
Ever notice I have little time for you?

For I have figured you out.
You love legalism too much.

I do not know what your background is.
But, apparently, what you do you learned to consider normal and without question.

If it is ever to happen?

You're the type that needs to be shocked into correction.
But, that will not happen with you.

For up goes the nose, and away you walk.

In Bible college I had contact with a very pretty legalistic girl.
It was a pity to behold.
Very saddening.
 
And, so should you really find out!

Keep in mind.
Jesus was teaching as a rabbi would teach Jewish disciples.

Binding and loosing was Jewish thinking.
Jesus was delegating authority to his disciples that Jews called Hallakah.
Under Judaism, rabbis were granted authority to make rules and regulations that were not directly covered
under the Law of Moses. Those rules and regulations for the community became a system called, Hallakah.

What the disciples would bind on earth?
God would honor their word, and bind in heaven.
Why would you think I didn't know?