No living faith without works
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Pope Gregory IX started the medieval inquisition 200-300 years before the Spanish inquisition. Some history needs to be known.
So let's make this simple:
Are born again believers required to obey God?
Does this obedience include doing good works?
What I pray for is that Christians stop making grace cheap.
Jesus died for what He taught and it should NOT be misrepresneted on these Forums.
Wow.
this is incredible.
I've never heard of it.
They must be keeping this from me.
Catholics say there is no firm hope because OSAS IS WRONG !
We can know we're saved right now.
HOW can you be certain you'll still be saved 20 years from now?
A person cannot know who they will react to life.
Persons have fallen away.
Want an example? Not that one should be necessary because SCRIPTURE teaches loss of salvation.
Has an autistic daughter, about 25 now.
Husband dies about 5 years ago.
Son dies about a year ago.
She's faltering.
Gee.
Maybe she was never saved to begin with !
Gosh Dan.
HOW DUMB do you think Catholics are?
The ones that preserved the faith for you?
Salvation can be lost through obstinate mortal sin...mortal sin is not easily achieved.
There must be conditions. If you care to get into it...OK.
Accidentallly?
Some dumb catholic told you we could lose salvation ACCIDENTALLY?!
'nuff said.
Give him my address.
I don't understand about the KNOWLEDGE part.
I explained above what Catholicism teaches about assurance.
We can be assured as of right now.
NOT for the future.
I explaned why.
Please post your source.
Also, I'm not here to protect the CC.
Protestans have burned persons alive...
dipped women in lakes,,,tied to chiars...
to find out if they were devil-possessed.
If they were, they would drown.
Calvin had a man burned at the stake.
There are some denominations right now, NOT CATHOLIC,
that are abusing persons.
Do you really want to discuss this?
The church remains holy..
even when the members are not.
You can just google Medieval Inquisition but here’s one of the many sources:
Inquisition, In the Middle Ages, a judicial procedure that was used to combat heresy; in early modern times, a formal Roman Catholic judicial institution. Inquisito, a Latin term meaning investigation or inquest, was a legal procedure that involved the assemblage of evidence and the prosecution of a criminal trial. Use of the procedure against the heresies of the Cathari and Waldenses was approved by Pope Gregory IX in 1231. Suspected heretics were arrested, interrogated, and tried; the use of torture was approved by Innocent IV in 1252. https://www.britannica.com/summary/inquisition
Yes but this was done by individual denominations, city councils, and other local authorities not by the leadership of a unified Protestant church being there technically isn’t one. We still have denominations that would probably do it today if they could get away with it such as the Hillsboro Baptists.
Nah I was just pointing out that it didn’t start with the Spaniards.
True.
Will look into it some more.
My belief has been that the Pope did not know what was going on.
I'm referring to the torturing part...not the council part.
But, yes, I studied early church history for a very specific purpose,,,
the rest doesn't interest me too much because the CC lost its way after
it got involved with governing states instead of caring for souls.
I believe the spaniards were the ones that abused the council system of inquiry.
If you know the answer,,,I'd be interested to know (or if the abuse was wide-spread)
otherwise, just let it go.
A much longer read but the Catholic encyclopedia has it also. It was approved for interrogation purposes as long as they didn’t cut off a limb or kill you.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Inquisition
An inquisition is a special Church institution for suppressing heresy. To understand inquisitions, you must first understand two important facts.
www.newadvent.org
Curiously enough, torture was not regarded as a mode of punishment, but purely as a means of eliciting the truth. It was not of ecclesiasticalorigin, and was long prohibited in the ecclesiastical courts. Nor was it originally an important factor in the inquisitional procedure, being unauthorized until twenty years after the Inquisition had begun. It was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull "Ad exstirpanda" of 15 May, 1252, which was confirmed by Alexander IVon 30 November, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 November, 1265. The limit placed upon torture was citra membri diminutionem et mortis periculum — i.e, it was not to cause the loss of life or limb or imperil life.
That’s great.
But you didn’t answer the question.
Have you ever been here, on Christian Chat before under a different name?
HigherGospel aka DallasMan aka Stan_the_Man aka JimmyTheLock has.
This is the bait and switch I love with you people!!!! What did YOU claim? Grace nullifies human input but now you're claiming Scripture doesn't say you can do whatever you like. If grace nullifies human input why would it matter what I do? If faith alone saves then what I do is irrelevant but you claim it does. I'd call you duplicitous but that suggest foreknowledge, I dont think you people even realize what you're saying or how nonsensical your theology is.
Very telling they refuse to answer that question. Shows exactly what kind of character they have.HigherGospel aka DallasMan aka Stan_the_Man aka JimmyTheLock has.
Tired drivelA much longer read but the Catholic encyclopedia has it also. It was approved for interrogation purposes as long as they didn’t cut off a limb or kill you.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Inquisition
An inquisition is a special Church institution for suppressing heresy. To understand inquisitions, you must first understand two important facts.
Curiously enough, torture was not regarded as a mode of punishment, but purely as a means of eliciting the truth. It was not of ecclesiasticalorigin, and was long prohibited in the ecclesiastical courts. Nor was it originally an important factor in the inquisitional procedure, being unauthorized until twenty years after the Inquisition had begun. It was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull "Ad exstirpanda" of 15 May, 1252, which was confirmed by Alexander IVon 30 November, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 November, 1265. The limit placed upon torture was citra membri diminutionem et mortis periculum — i.e, it was not to cause the loss of life or limb or imperil life.
Who can know?
I'm a world traveller.
I like to travel.
WHY do you care so much PennEd?
Is it taking dinner off your plate?
I've been on 5 forums...
anything is possible.
Here is what you said.
"The inquisition happened in Spain. Some history needs to be known."
The Inquisition operated primarily in European Catholic kingdoms from the 13th to 19th
centuries, with its most active tribunals in Spain, Portugal, France, and Italy. It was also
established in the Holy Roman Empire (Germany), the Netherlands, and Spanish/Portuguese
colonies in the New World (Mexico, Peru). (Google)
It appears your knowledge of history is lacking.
Did you notice when I said that I don't care?
Did you follow the entire conversation?
I really do not care to discuss this.
Seriously? Luther came up with that dystopian delusion?
Today they put it this way: God only makes the man righteous, not the works:
1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
The deception of faith alone justification is all about being righteous while doing unrighteousness.
They condemn their body for sinning, not their own soul. They believe God does the same, and does not judge also judge them for their own unrighteous deeds, like He does others. Their hypocritical delusion can be strong in this life, but it ends in the grave:
Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...For there is no respect of persons with God.
Martin Luther came from a strict order of self-denial works and purposed suffering, in order to be justified with God. It looks like he finally decided to short-circuit the whole destructive works process, and leap onto the other far said of being justified by faith alone without works.
Unfortunately that's what happens when Christians have been decieved too far to the left or the right. They then leap from one to the other. They either become justifiers of works alone without faith, or faith alone without works.
Well, amen to that brother. It's what Christ means, that the faith without works, is dead as the body without the spirit.
The faith is for the body, not just the heart. God's faith is to purify both the soul and the life as one, not only sanctify the soul apart from the life:
Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
1 Thess{5:22}
Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
We see that along with the man doing righteousness is righteous, and the justified man is sanctified in life.
Faith alone Christianity seeks to be wholly righteous and justified inwardly, but not outwardly. Inward being instant and eternal, outward only being gradual and never complete.
Faith alone Christians are the liberal arm of progressive Christianity, that never become holy unto the Lord:
1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
They vainly hope to be holy in body and soul only after the grave, where there is no more repentance granted from God:
Heb{9:27}
It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Amen again. James 2 in a nutshell: When faith is not working on the outside, it's dead on the inside.
Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
And there you go. Having faith alone is having our own beliefs alone. As above, everything they believe is for themselves alone, and contrary to Scripture of truth.
They have their own faith alone, justification alone, and christ alone.
It's understandable for anyone having a faith alone that justifies them, to naturally trust that whatever they believe must be justified for them: I.e. if they believe it, it must be true.
It's the pseudo-Christian religion of seeking and finding our own truth. Where Scripture of truth only becomes a personal guide for their faith, not the objective rule that judges all things good or evil.
Well said. Faith alone justification is it's own gospel alone, independent of Scripture of truth.
If their faith is independent of works, then it's also independent of love:
1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Faith and love is all alone within, independently of any works without. Some call it Faith Standing Alone, even as an idol of their own making, that stands brightly apart from whatever unrighteous deeds being done at any time.
Amo 5:26
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Oh no. They tell themselves they have no 'license' to sin, but only that they must continue to sin, so long as their bodies' remains sinful.
Once again, it's the body's fault by the faith alone doctrine of being made and born with sin from the womb. It not only blames the body for sinning on earth, but also Christ for making the bodies of men and women sinful.
Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…
Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Amen. Spiritual on the inside, carnal on the outside. Doing works of the flesh, while thinking spiritually. My body does bad things, but my heart is good...
They turning the wretchedness of a double heart in Romans 7, into an instructional manual for life.
Unlike the 'unbelievers', they vehemently now protest they really hate sin, while committing the sinful deeds of the world.
It's all eyesalve and eyewash for the soul and heart, while putting all the blame on the body.
Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Correct again. Rather than crucifying their own sins and trespasses on their own cross unto death, they instead suppose by magical faith alone to piggy back on Jesus' cross, after He's already been killed by unrighteous sinners like themselves.
Faith alone Christians inevitably claim they are being misspoken, when their teaching is unfavorably compared with Scripture. But they never answer the simple question to prove otherwise:
When they are doing unrighteousness as the sinners, are they still justified by their faith alone in Christ?