No living faith without works

[Inquisitor]

Amen. The wages of sin is still death, and sin still separated man from God.

You have condemned yourself!

 

[Inquisitor]

I'd love to go through those verses but it's 12:30 AM here and I'm leaving.
I will say this.....you need to stop talking to CATHOLICS and start talking to Catholic theologians who know what the CC teaches.

Here's something I've probably said other times:
I know YOU don't live a sinful life.
But some do and they think they're saved because of OSAS.
It's a dangerous doctrine.

I get pushback for stating that we're to obey God....
including from you with the ole' strawman of FAITH SAVES US AND NOT WORKS...
mixing up justification and sanctification.

The other comment is this:
I studied with a friar (monk?) for years in a sanctuary about 40 minutes north of me.
Know why? Because there are no Protestant churches around.
So I figured I'd close my ears to Mariology and give it a try.
It was wondeful !
Nothing strange was taught.
I know a priest that's a theologian.
Wonderful !

Try talking to these type persons......
I'm not here to protect the CC, just to tell you that there's something wrong with what you hear.

But your mind will not be changed.

This sin presumption doctrine is correct !
No use in discussing it ad infinitum....but it's exactly what the NT teaches.

Anyway, I'm outta here.
'night.

The Catholic Church made a number of serious errors.

One was binding all Catholics to the law.

Gentiles were never under the law and never can be under the law.

Gentiles were never placed under the yoke of the law (Acts 15).

The wrong set of commandments.

Secondly, the Catholic Church introduced indulgences which was heavily abused by the clergy.

Thirdly, the Catholic Church introduced the Inquisition to punish those opposed to the Catholic Church.

The Inquisition is the polar opposite of loving your enemies.

There is more but that should be enough for today.

 

[Gideon300]

The challenge was saved by faith alone.

So, obviously the answer to the question is, that Jesus does not say any man is saved by faith alone. Which He couldn't say, since He says having faith alone cannot save any man.


No man is saved by faith at all? Not only saved without works, but also without faith?

I've heard of some new kind of Christian thing called 'radical' grace. This must be it.





Jesus Christ is not just any people.

Sinners who don't like having their sinful deeds talked about, shouldn't read the Bible.




We? As in who? Unrighteous sinners? Of course not. No man is any good while doing evil. Nor is any man righteous, while doing unrighteousness.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing evil is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning.



This is true. That's why no man is saved by their faith alone, but only by the faith of Jesus Christ, which He freely gives to all that repent of their sinning for His sake.

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ ,even we have believed in Jesus Christ , that we might be justified by the faith of Christ...

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.





Being justified by works is not without salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.


Now a difference between being born again and saved?

Saved by grace alone, not by faith, not by works, not by being born of God?

If so, Radical indeed.






, you're dead and do no works??

Who's typing all these words?

The challenge was saved by faith alone.

So, obviously the answer to the question is, that Jesus does not say any man is saved by faith alone. Which He couldn't say, since He says having faith alone cannot save any man.


No man is saved by faith at all? Not only saved without works, but also without faith?

I've heard of some new kind of Christian thing called 'radical' grace. This must be it.





Jesus Christ is not just any people.

Sinners who don't like having their sinful deeds talked about, shouldn't read the Bible.




We? As in who? Unrighteous sinners? Of course not. No man is any good while doing evil. Nor is any man righteous, while doing unrighteousness.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing evil is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning.



This is true. That's why no man is saved by their faith alone, but only by the faith of Jesus Christ, which He freely gives to all that repent of their sinning for His sake.

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ ,even we have believed in Jesus Christ , that we might be justified by the faith of Christ...

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.





Being justified by works is not without salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.


Now a difference between being born again and saved?

Saved by grace alone, not by faith, not by works, not by being born of God?

If so, Radical indeed.






Matth 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

The natural man does not believe in the works of the spirit of man, nor that Jesus judges words as works, as well as evil thoughts and intents of the heart.



You think everyone is doing your deeds? That God does not honor?



God is only pleased Jesus' deeds, and them that do His works by His faith.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


So, you're dead and do no works??

Who's typing all these words?

I was saved before I knew anything about anything to do with the Christian life. I knew nothing about works. I knew nothing about the fruit of the Spirit, holiness, righteousness or sanctification. I was saved on the basis of trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross. I was born again. I did not know the implications of that at first. That came later.

Your reasoning is flawed. My works did not save me. It is Jesus who saved me. He even gave me the faith so that I could accept Him. Do you not know that all mankind is dead in trespass and sin? They are quite capable of doing whatever suits them. So death is not what you imply that it means.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'd love to go through those verses but it's 12:30 AM here and I'm leaving.
I will say this.....you need to stop talking to CATHOLICS and start talking to Catholic theologians who know what the CC teaches.

Here's something I've probably said other times:
I know YOU don't live a sinful life.
But some do and they think they're saved because of OSAS.
It's a dangerous doctrine.

I get pushback for stating that we're to obey God....
including from you with the ole' strawman of FAITH SAVES US AND NOT WORKS...
mixing up justification and sanctification.

The other comment is this:
I studied with a friar (monk?) for years in a sanctuary about 40 minutes north of me.
Know why? Because there are no Protestant churches around.
So I figured I'd close my ears to Mariology and give it a try.
It was wondeful !
Nothing strange was taught.
I know a priest that's a theologian.
Wonderful !

Try talking to these type persons......
I'm not here to protect the CC, just to tell you that there's something wrong with what you hear.

But your mind will not be changed.

This sin presumption doctrine is correct !
No use in discussing it ad infinitum....but it's exactly what the NT teaches.

Anyway, I'm outta here.
'night.

Catholic doctrine.​

V. The Sacraments Of Salvation​

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

I disagree strongly with that statement.

Believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15) is the single cause of our salvation.

Saying that the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation is dead wrong.

 

[PennEd]

Known you a long time PennEd.
Now, if YOU want yo be honest you'll have to admit that you were on another forum.

And so nice of you to call me Satan.

Does the name Wondering bring back Amy memories?

Maybe you'll stop asking silly questions as you gain Christian maturity.

Oh. And if you stop accusing brethren, that would be nice too.

I have NEVER been on another forum. I guess many, many years ago I may have perused some other Christian site once or twice without making an account, but for more than 15 years now I have ONLY been on this site.

And no. The name “Wondering” means absolutely nothing to me.

So why do you keep saying you know me?

Have you been a cc member before?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

You have condemned yourself!

Nah, he’s perfectly righteous in his own mind. He never sins, so obviously no separation from God. Just redefine sin, convince yourself that accidental missteps aren’t real sin, and you’re good.

 

[Gideon300]

Catholic doctrine.​

V. The Sacraments Of Salvation​

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

I disagree strongly with that statement.

Believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15) is the single cause of our salvation.

Saying that the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation is dead wrong.

Roman Catholicism is not the church. It's a man made construct that deceives hundreds of millions.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

I have NEVER been on another forum. I guess many, many years ago I may have perused some other Christian site once or twice without making an account, but for more than 15 years now I have ONLY been on this site.

And no. The name “Wondering” means absolutely nothing to me.

So why do you keep saying you know me?

Have you been a cc member before?

She’s been a longtime member of CC according to some. Franc and Godsgrace101 ring a bell? Apparently been banned a couple times.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Roman Catholicism is not the church. It's a man made construct that deceives hundreds of millions.

Seems like a bunch of man made rituals while being used like a government to control people to me but what do I know.

 

[Standard]

know what's wrong with YOU GUYS Standard....

you either don't read the entire NT
or
you don't understand it.

And to think that Jesus spoke in a very clear and plain way because what He was saying was so important
and it was so important that those listening UNDERSTOOD what He was saying.

Do you suppose Jesus was a really bad communicator and couldn't get across what He wanted to teach?

And to think it took over 3 years and He even had to hang on a cross to get His message across.

And yet YOU GUYS just don't seem to understand what He was TRYING to teach.

Guess it didn't work.

Sad.

I have read it and I read it. I have also developed a good understanding. Yes, Jesus was clear and we're saved by grace, displaying a faith that will flourish with works of the Spirit.
Please don't just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. We should pray for each other....

 

[Toknow]

I don't promote a license to sin/license for immortality so I would not presume I had eternal life if I was living like the devil. I've heard Roman Catholics accuse believers of the sin of presumption simply for saying they know they have eternal life based on 1 John 5:13 and then those same Roman Catholics twisted 1 John 5:13 to mean the opposite of what the verse actually says.

Too many new terms....Christianity is so simple.
1. Belileve in God.
2. Obey God.

Let's look at the two verse you posted because Catholics also can believe they are saved....
so if they're telling you that you're sinning for believing you're saved (have I understood??) then they need to take some kind
of Catholic biblical course --- which I've done BTW.

1 John 5:13
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So how does one change that around?
Send them my address!!

Catholics say this:
You can know you're saved if you're at the foot of the cross.

Maybe the person you spoke to is not at the foot of the cross....

 

[mailmandan]

Too many new terms....Christianity is so simple.
1. Belileve in God.
2. Obey God.

Let's look at the two verse you posted because Catholics also can believe they are saved....
so if they're telling you that you're sinning for believing you're saved (have I understood??) then they need to take some kind
of Catholic biblical course --- which I've done BTW.

1 John 5:13
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So how does one change that around?
Send them my address!!

Catholics say this:
You can know you're saved if you're at the foot of the cross.

Maybe the person you spoke to is not at the foot of the cross....

Key Aspects of Catholic Teaching on Salvation Assurance:

Hope, Not Presumption: Catholics possess a "firm hope" of heaven, but claiming infallible certainty is considered the sin of presumption.

Conditional Security: Assurance depends on remaining in a state of grace, as salvation can be lost through mortal sin, though not easily or accidentally.

In refard to 1 John 5:13, I've heard Catholics argue that the "knowledge" of having eternal life is not absolute certainty, but rather a confident assurance.

 

[Toknow]

So, Catholics don't know what the Catholic church teaches?

Yes Dan.
This is correct.
Most Catholics go to church and confession and don't know any of their church teachings.
They just do what the church tells them to do and they're good to go.

You might be speaking to some knowledgable ones....
but, trust me, I've been to Catholic bible studies and they're not the most clear teachings.
The reason I understand them is because I bring my Protestantism with me and know biblical theology.
You should hear what their teachings sound like.
They're CORRECT but it sounds like word salad.

OSAS becomes a dangerous doctrine when you attach a license to sin/license for immortality to it, just like NOSAS becomes a dangerous doctrine when you attach type 2 works salvation/salvation by works at the back door to it.

Those in your no. 1 scenario exist.
Those in your no. 2 scenatio are not incorrect.

We ARE saved by our works.
Jesus said we are to obey.
Obedience includes works.
It's really very easy and should not require any verses from the NT.
But I've supplied many.

Works IS NOT A FILTHY WORD.
Jesus came to bring the Kingdom of God here on earth.
This requires WORKS/good deeds.

YOUR KINGDOM COME
Matthew 6:10

HOW do you suppose this Kingdom could come on earth WITHOUT GOOD WORKS/DEEDS??

We are to obey God. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) You can get carried away with the word MUST at times in which must or else obey God can quickly turn into legalism.

Call it legalism.
I really don't care.
But God cares.

We MUST obey God OR ELSE we will become lost.
When a person WANDERS AWAY from §God...he becomes lost.

I give you the lost sheep.
I give you the Prodigal son.

 

[mailmandan]

We ARE saved by our works.

(Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[Toknow]

I am not going to shoulder your burden of responsibility.

Too bad.
I really needed that shoulder of yours.

 

[Toknow]

Nah you’re probably good. According to some though you don’t have it yet. According to others you just lost it. Some say you can get it back and some say you can’t. According to at least one on here, both you and I have been kicked out of the body of Christ already, but I’m guessing he hasn’t gotten to 1 John 2:1 yet.

Very good Just !
I applaud you.
I love sarcasm.
It can say so much...
just as you have.

 

[Toknow]

(Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

You know I love your carpet bombing....
CHOOSE one of the above and we'll discuss.
You know,,,make a point and then back it up with a couple of veses, or one of the above.

That's usually how it's done.

Word salad with verses MENTIONED is NOT how theology is discussed.

 

[Toknow]

What is with you? Why do you throw insults so casually? I suggest you read and consider Matthew 12:36 carefully.

Oh. I agree whole heartedly.

We should be very careful with our words.
Sometimes persons on here sound like we don't need to obey God...
or do any good works because it's knowns as works salvation...
when all Jesus did was to teach His followers to do good works.

I'll add another verse to the one you mentoned here:

Matthew 12:34-37
34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Yes. I DO remember the words spoken to me when I was a new poster here.
Seems that some have forgotten to read your verses above.


Here is another verse I like a lot......


James 3:1
1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
This one will also fit in nicely:
John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father
and, last, but not least:


Ephesians 4.1-3
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,

3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

 

[Toknow]

The Catholic Church made a number of serious errors.

Agreed.

One was binding all Catholics to the law.

The CC doesn't believe in following the Law.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago.

Gentiles were never under the law and never can be under the law.

Agreed.

Gentiles were never placed under the yoke of the law (Acts 15).

Agreed.

The wrong set of commandments.

Which set is the right set?
There are two sets of commandments?

Secondly, the Catholic Church introduced indulgences which was heavily abused by the clergy.

Agreed.
It did built a beautiful Basilica down in Rome.
But still wrong.

Thirdly, the Catholic Church introduced the Inquisition to punish those opposed to the Catholic Church.

Not agreed.

The inquisition happened in Spain.
Some history needs to be known.

The Inquisition is the polar opposite of loving your enemies.

Yes.
Those Spaniards were evil.
(not all of them- just the ones that practiced this horrendous evil)

There is more but that should be enough for today.

I think so.

But there's enough blame to go around.
We Protestants are not totally guilt free either.

 

[Toknow]

Catholic doctrine.​

V. The Sacraments Of Salvation​

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

I disagree strongly with that statement.

Believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15) is the single cause of our salvation.

Saying that the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation is dead wrong.

This would be a long conversation and I'm not Catholic although I do know the doctrine...
so i'm not really willing.

There is a reason, however, for each sacrament and it does seem to be biblical
even though we may not agree with the position of the CC.