That's the biggest stretch of interpretation I've seen in a while. Or correct me, are you saying this woman will be hiding the Body of Christ during God's wrath? If not, why post it then?
Are You Rapture Ready?
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Jesus never spoke of a rapture , but JN Darby did ! Jesus says he will raise up believers on the LAST DAY .
- The Gathering of the Elect: Matthew 24:31 mentions angels gathering his followers from the four winds.
- One Taken, One Left: Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-37 describe a sudden separation, with some believers being "taken" and others left.
- The Promise to Receive Followers: In John 14:1-3, Jesus mentions preparing a place and coming back to take his followers to be where
If you made one of those short prayers as you tried to find it like Lord help me find it. Then I am gonna say yeah I am a answer to prayer.....LOL I am fooling of course but glad you have it as a reference now. Which those types of scriptures I have to search for when I find it, I don't forget it again. Or at least that was the case when the numbers of my age were not as high as they are now......LOL
On the Last day John 6 v 39 , 40 44 if that’s not enough pray
!
I won't forget it now as it relates to Abraham and the two angels who warned him to get his family OUT of Sodom bc God's wrath is about to land. Thx again!
The statement that Christ did not is correct. The gather after the tribulation is the gathering of Israel. God had promised in Deuteronomy that when the house of Israel repents and he restore them. It is the same language he uses in the gospels.
Deuteronomy 30:3-4
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee.
The sending of the angels to gather and one taken the other left is God's fulfillment of the restoration.
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke 17:34-37
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Christ is letting it be known were they will be gathered to, Jerusalem. The conflation us that folks will see the gathering in 2 Thessalonians and here in these versus as the same they are not. In English we use one word to describe many things in Greek not so.
Gathering here in Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It is episunagó: to gather together, to assemble.
1. to gather altogether (upon the same place)
2. to gather completely
It is and can be used to bring folks to where others are already assembled.
1. to gather together besides, to bring together to others already assembled.
Which is how it is laid out to Israel in Zephaniah. The use of gather here is also the same use one chapter earlier.
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Verses 38-39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Chapter 24 the gathering is the restoration of the desolate house.
Zephaniah 3:18-20
I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
19Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
20At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
So that is what the gathering here is, a gathering to a place, Jerusalem and it is the restoration of Israel. The solemn assembly.
The gathering in 2 Thess is episunagógé: gather together assemble.
1. a complete gathering
2. (especially) a Christian meeting (reoccuring for worship)
Cognate: 1997 episynagōgḗ – a specific (apt) "grouping together" that fulfills (builds on) the specific purpose of the gathering together
The only other pace this gathering is mentioned is Hebrews 10. Not to forsake the gathering of ourselves. One gathering is to gather to a place at a set time. The other to fulfill the purpose of the gathering. Like when we gather together at church the purpose is to be with the Lord, to praise and worship him, to have fellowship with him.
Which our gathering in 2 Thess fulfills or completes the purpose, to be with him to fellowship with him. Why we are told when he gathers us we will be forever at his side, always with him.
So the statement is correct Christ is not talking about the rapture he is talking about the restoration of Israel the gathering to Jerusalem where we will already be with him.
Amen Brother. What a lot of people miss is Matthew 24 is that, the disciples ask Jesus 3 questions. Jesus answers all of them and ends in verse 31. In verse 32 Jesus says let's talk about the parable of the fig tree which leads into the rapture verses. Details Brothers & Sisters!
Still on the subject of the resurrection (as opposed to some theoretical rapture), there are two key passages in The New Testament, both written by the Apostle Paul, that are commonly used by "rapturists" to describe their fictional event.
To the Christians at Corinth, Paul writes "...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, an we shall be changed." (I Cor. 15:51, 52).
At this point he has already written to the believers at Thessalonica with a very similar doctrinal statement: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..." (I Thes. 4:16, 17).
Because both verses describe people being raised from the dead it should be obvious that this is a significant description of the resurrection of the believers. Both passages are consistent, for they say that "the dead in Christ shall rise first...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up..." He couldn't make it any clearer: At the resurrection of believers in Christ, all the dead believers will be resurrected; then those that are alive will be "changed" to the same "incorruptible" state as the resurrected believers.
The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches that believers that live in the last generation will be "changed" into a resurrected or eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period -- which is generally believed to be 7 years in length. The doctrine then goes on to say that there will be many "tribulation saints" that come to know Christ after the so-called rapture. While the "raptured" believers are in heaven during the tribulation, all or most of these "tribulation saints" will all be killed for their faith during the tribulation.
Revelation does describe believers that are martyred during the great tribulation. John writes that "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God...and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4). The problem should already be apparent. If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the 'rapture' before the tribulation, how then can these so-called "tribulation saints" be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
Remember the previously cited verses (see post #15 ) that clearly show there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost. If you have the "dead in Christ" rising at the time of the fictional "rapture" before the tribulation and the falsely name "tribulation saints" later raised after the tribulation is over, you then have two resurrections of the believers. That contradicts the plain teaching of the scriptures.
Rapturists usually attempt to answer this problem by redefining the raptured believers as "firstfruits" rather than resurrected believers -- that way they can still have the "real" resurrection at the end of the tribulation. The Apostle Paul, however, precludes this as he writes that the resurrection will occur for "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1 Cor. 15:23).
A further refinement of this concept of a singular resurrection of believers needs to be addressed. When the text says "the dead in Christ" are to be raised at a particular point in time, e.g. "at the last trump," we can draw certain conclusions. When scripture uses the term "the," in a collective sense (as opposed to 'some of the dead in Christ'), we see the word as all inclusive. In short, the phrasing of the text obviously means all the dead in Christ that have ever lived will be raised at that time. There is simply no other way to turn this into a partial resurrection, or a progressive resurrection, or anything else other than an all inclusive resurrection of all believers in Jesus Christ.
Now let's say that this theoretical pre-tribulation "rapture" occurs next week. That means that every believer since the time of Christ that has died will "rise first," according to II Thes. 4:16. That would be about 99% of all Christians in history! How then can one say that this event would be the firstfruits -- especially when the text says that Jesus himself is the firstfruits? That sounds like the main 'harvest' to me!
It's really very simple: If you take away the pre-conceived notion of a "rapture" the problems also go away. Jesus returns at the second coming at the end of the tribulation. There will be Christians that are alive at that time. All dead believers will be resurrected from the dead at his return, and "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds." (I Cor. 15:51).
Jesus said my sheep hear my voice ! Amazing how true that is ! Darkness is a terrible thing . The Last day is so crystal clear unless in a dark cloud of some kind !
When in Biblical history did God pour His wrath over His OBEDIENT faithful children?
God is more than able to shelter his own anytime any place ! In the book of Daniel the three were thrown into the fiery furnace and untouched ! How a bout Daniel in the lions den , a few examples !
Those weren't God's wrath so that doesn't prove your point. But nice try, lol, blessings.
In the Book of Exodus, the Plagues of Egypt (Hebrew: מכות מצרים) were ten disasters that Yahweh inflicted on the Egyptians to convince the Pharaoh to ...
- Purpose: The plagues were designed to demonstrate God's supremacy over the Egyptian gods and to punish Pharaoh for his refusal to let the Israelites go.
Ty for an answer and insights to your view, you make very good points. Now the difference that I see is that those believers with the seal of God are the many who will convert during the Trib, after the Rapture. Where pre & post Tribbers differ is that pre-tribs believe in the Rapture catches up believers before the Trib and post-tribs at the end with the Church going thru the wrath of God. Of course it's true as believers we will have opposition and persecution, as the Bible says.
What I also concur is that it's key to just 'Be Ready' from now on. I wouldn't want to take any chances on being 'left behind' lol. That's what I posted about Paul Crouch a while back, is that God told him on this matter, 'tell the people to 'Be Ready' and I think that's the perfect answer. Thx again for a direct answer too, bravo, lol!(btw, I'm not angry or hate any post-tribbers
honest)
Haha no worries, and I know you don't hate post-tribbers lol. I appreciate that about you
.You may be correct about those with the seal of God on their foreheads being saved after the rapture, it's definitely possible! My main thought on the subject is like you said, just "be ready".
I think post-tribbers should be ready for Jesus whenever He comes, because He might come sooner than they expect.
I think pre-tribbers should be ready to wait longer than they expect and endure some persecution, because we don't know just how bad it's going to get before we check out of here.
Jesus said He would come when we least expect it, that statement alone makes me want to lean mid-trib lol.
But anyways, yes I agree that we won't be appointed to God's wrath BUT for any Christians still present for these events (perhaps only those who get saved after the rapture
), I think life will still be a bit sticky while God's wrath is being poured out. Like, no it won't apply to Christians directly but being around all that still won't be pleasant. Lot was spared but he lost his home, his livelihood, most of his relatives and had to live in a cave.
Noah survived the flood but spent a great deal of time and resources building the ark, eventually lost his home and had to rebuild from nothing, not to mention it was probably traumatic seeing everyone and everything he knew get washed away as they begged to be let in.
So yeah.... although we're not subject to God's wrath we can still suffer from fallout from it but in the end He's got us.
Best!
Hi psalm, my "snarky mess" was purely in response to the rather vivid fantasy you related wherein you hoped all post-tribbers get left behind in the Rapture. It was not about you personally, I merely posted that it was a divisive thing to say and a disturbing thing to hope for.
However, I do get what you are saying that it was a bit of a "drive-by rebuke", and I apologize for that.
Really I was just trying to be fair since I had just called out a post-tribber for similar behavior, but since I don't know you well it may have been out of line, if so I apologize.
I'm sorry if post-tribbers have said things that make you want them to get left out of the rapture. They shouldn't do that. Of all things that OUGHT to bring us Christians together, you'd think this would qualify but sadly nope
.Best!
Thanks for the blessings, but all you are stating is God is not able to! Jesus said with God all things are possible. God said is there anything to hard for me ?
Where did I theorize any of these, friend? You should admit your error in your weaponization of Matt. 24:40-41 out of context. If that were rapture, then it would be the rapture of the wicked. It is you who theorized your pretrib narrative, not me.
I've never done that, how are they "firstfruits of the resurrection" when they've never died in the first place, being sealed by God in Rev. 7? What I alluded to was the origin of the "firstfruits", which you've totally ignored. You're just strawmanning.