You're
Just saying the same thing like you always do. You never actually engage in honest discussion. Grace and Peace.
Fig leaf Christianity
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Repeating that enough times won't cause it to become true or any less absurd. The Law of God does not bring condemnation for those who follow it but only to those who refuse to follow it. God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23) and this was not done for the purpose of bringing condemnation to us, but just the opposite.
I'be changed my mind about a number of issues even something as major as the role of the Torah, so I'm open to having my mind changed but I need to be convinced. If you think that I've misunderstood the verses that I've used to support my position, then you should be able to explain why. If you choose to ignore my position and believe what you choose to believe, then you are the one who is doing that, not me.
Indeed, it is a shame that you do that. In Psalm 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression father Torah that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free. In Titus 2:!4, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah but in order to free us form all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.
What exactly is wrong with the position that followers of Christ should follow his example?
I'm trying to engage with an honest discussion with you, but you keep dodging and handwaving.
Do you think that Jesus and the Apostles views the Psalms as expressing a correct view of obeying the Torah?
A
arlev
Guest
I'm an old believer. I've met a lot of people over the years who have been so bound in to their way of thinking that they can never be reasoned with, Scriptures are twisted to make them conform to what they want to believe. No reason ever reaches them, they are never open to change.
As I said, you need God to give you a revelation of the work of Christ. I'm not going to waste time trying to teach the hardened of heart - that was never my calling.
I hope that God, one day, gives you the chance, the revelation and the ability to turn your life around into the freedom in Christ.
We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ and repent for that is all we can do.
After we are saved there is a requirement we must meet to have salvation effective in our life.
Some people think that a person is saved by Christ alone and they do not participate in salvation but they do.
When we repented of our sins and confessed Christ we were participating in our salvation.
Anything that is a requirement means we participate in our salvation.
And if we do not meet these requirements there is no salvation.
After we were saved there are requirements so we participate in our salvation.
We were not doing that before we were saved so we had to make a change so we participate in our salvation.
God is not going to force us to do those things so we participate in our salvation.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
That is why the Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because we participate in our salvation.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Paul speaks after a person is saved that if they do not have the requirement of charity they are nothing.
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
castaway
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
Paul said if he did not abstain from sin he would be rejected, unapproved.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Charity is greater than faith and faith works by love.
Charity does not think and evil thought.
And does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth to hate sin and allow the Spirit to lead them to abstain from sin.
Anybody that hold on to sin that is not love then their faith is no good.
It is a requirement to abstain from sin and be Christlike so we participate in our salvation.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Those that do not change to meet this requirement there is no salvation.
So if we have to make a change to meet this requirement then we participate in our salvation.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.
Anybody that goes by their wants neglects helping people with their needs and that is not love then their faith is no good.
It is a requirement to do works by helping people with their needs whatever they are so we participate in our salvation.
There is requirements and to not meet those requirements there is no salvation so we participate in our salvation.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.
They want to enjoy sin, money, their wants, and belief they have salvation.
But the Bible says otherwise.
They will not let go of the flesh.
After we are saved there is a requirement we must meet to have salvation effective in our life.
Some people think that a person is saved by Christ alone and they do not participate in salvation but they do.
When we repented of our sins and confessed Christ we were participating in our salvation.
Anything that is a requirement means we participate in our salvation.
And if we do not meet these requirements there is no salvation.
After we were saved there are requirements so we participate in our salvation.
We were not doing that before we were saved so we had to make a change so we participate in our salvation.
God is not going to force us to do those things so we participate in our salvation.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
That is why the Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because we participate in our salvation.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Paul speaks after a person is saved that if they do not have the requirement of charity they are nothing.
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
castaway
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
Paul said if he did not abstain from sin he would be rejected, unapproved.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Charity is greater than faith and faith works by love.
Charity does not think and evil thought.
And does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth to hate sin and allow the Spirit to lead them to abstain from sin.
Anybody that hold on to sin that is not love then their faith is no good.
It is a requirement to abstain from sin and be Christlike so we participate in our salvation.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Those that do not change to meet this requirement there is no salvation.
So if we have to make a change to meet this requirement then we participate in our salvation.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.
Anybody that goes by their wants neglects helping people with their needs and that is not love then their faith is no good.
It is a requirement to do works by helping people with their needs whatever they are so we participate in our salvation.
There is requirements and to not meet those requirements there is no salvation so we participate in our salvation.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.
They want to enjoy sin, money, their wants, and belief they have salvation.
But the Bible says otherwise.
They will not let go of the flesh.
The flesh first birth is death. The Spirit of Father, the Holy Spirit is life gvien to anyone that is sincere in belief to Father God in risen Son for them.
And one starts new, crawls at first. Learns to walk new in father's Spirit and Truth of love and mercy to all John 4:23-24
The Change
Hebrews 7:11-12 thank you
Sure, but the love that we need is provided by God anyway. It's the fruit of the Spirit. And it's not a new law in the legal sense. It's law in the sense of principle. like the law of gravity.
When Adam was in Eden, there was the Tree of Life that he could have eaten from. If he had done so, we would have lived forever and fulfilled the great purpose that God has for mankind. We know the truth that man disobeyed and the rest is the sorry history of the human race.
You can see it this way: Adam made a bad choice and the consequences rippled down to the whole human race. Lord Jesus did the opposite and obeyed God perfectly. Believers are, in the spiritual sense, put back in Eden. We have the choice once more to live according to the tree of knowledge of good and evil or the tree of Life. Sadly, all too many are more comfortable with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So they search the scriptures looking for eternal life. But the scriptures speak of Jesus. When we come to Him for life, we are satisfied.
I've read all kinds of falsehoods on this forum. One individual basically said that without a degree in theology, you can't understand the Bible. Matthew 11:25
"At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." I've not met a little child with a theology degree.
Jesus came that we might have abundant life. It's life that only He has and only He can give. If we spent more time discovering who we are in Christ and who He is in us, we would have far fewer problems in our experience.
I spent months under the burden of the Law, courtesy of the pastor who could not get his own way in the church I attended. I could not agree with him, but I did not know why or the answer. So I sought the Lord and His word. I came out of condemnation and into a little freedom. It was many years before I realised fully Jesus as my life. It was a wonderful and liberating revelation.
Yes
Too many believers don't even get to the the resurrection. They are stuck on forgiveness and do not realise the resurrection life that is ours in Christ.
Tue. I agree and I should have included that.
Too many believers don't even get to the the resurrection. They are stuck on forgiveness and do not realise the resurrection life that is ours in Christ.
Who is "they"? Either you are born again or you are not. If you are not born again then no amount of "good" behaviour can save you. If you are born again, you hate sin. If you are born again, you have eternal life. Eternal means, guess what, eternal.
Paul warns us to expel the wicked. There are many pseudo Christians infesting the true church. It is shameful that so few of the wicked are called out and expelled. However, accusing the brethren is the work of the devil. You'd better be sure that you are not imputing evil motives to people just because they disagree with you.
What is wrong? OK, so you want to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Where did He go? To the cross. I guess we won't be seeing you on the forum now.
Works are a choice. We will be judged on our choices Matt 25:31-46. Love must be a free act of the will otherwise it's not love.
Do you think that the Jerusalem Council agreed or disagreed that Psalm 19:7-11 expresses a correct view of obeying the Law of Moses?
By all means please explain why you think so.
in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20) while the way to reject what he accomplished would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.
In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses are not born again. Moreover, sin is the transgression of the Law of Moses, so those who hate sin will promote obedience to it while those who love sin will argue against obeying it.
1 Peter 2:21-22, it is speaking about following his example of refraining from sin, not suggesting that we should all become crucified.
Are you one of those people who are open to change who can never be reasoned with? If you want to have a conversation with me and then conclude that I can't be reasoned with, then you have the freedom to do that, but I don't see the point of you starting with the premise that I can't be reasoned with. Those who have hardened hearts in the Bible are resistant to what God has commanded, not those who are calling for repentance and obedience to what God has commanded. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.
What that usually means is you disagree with them. They really can't fathom how anyone could disagree with them since they believe their understanding of Scripture is authoritative. The only evidence they have for that belief is they all agree with one another.
A
arlev
Guest
Yes. I started out as a legalist like you when I was first saved - but God challenged me to forsake all my beliefs and come to the Scriptures to learn what the plain and simple teaching of the Scriptures is and to see what the Holy Spirit wanted me to see. The simplicity and depth is staggering.
We all come to Christ (if, indeed, you have come to Christ) with our own opinions, beliefs, preferences, biases. Most believers don't challenge their beliefs - they try to make the Scriptures fit.
You need to forsake your belief structures, start again and learn from Him by revelation. As I said, I do hope you do. I don't want to see anyone think they can please God by legalism, by observance to an external written code.
You make a lot of assumptions here and it's precisely what contributes to the attitude you people have. The biggest one is assuming your understanding of Scripture is authoritative. I know the Holy Spirit led you to see what he wanted you to see but how do you know that's correct and someone else's isnt? You're assuming the Holy Spirit didn't lead others to their beliefs simply because they disagree with you. I suspect you still can't or won't see the problem