It was written while the temple was still standing...fathom that logic.
Revolution in Iran
- Thread starter Gideon300
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It was written while the temple was still standing...fathom that logic.
I agree, he is thinking things through, connecting the dots, and seeing things more clearly
False. The earliest Church fathers all agree: Revelation was written around AD 95–96, during the reign of Domitian.
So the sequence is:
-Domitian persecutes Christians
-John is exiled to Patmos
-John writes Revelation there
-Domitian dies (AD 96)
-Nerva releases political/religious exiles
You also say that Irenaeus is not a trustworthy source. When in fact he is a superb witness.
Irenaeus said John personally taught Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna. Since Irenaeus himself had known Polycarp as a youth, he claimed a chain of memory back to John.
He has often stated he was raised Episcopalian. It gives him some knowledge as a starting point.
I think having been around the "ruling class" most of his life gives him tremendous knowledge and insight.
He could be controlled opposition, but he does seem to genuinely care about the US and US interests which are not at the expense of other states, so there is that.
The whole 96 date rests upon an ambiguous line by one church father (that got other things wrong) well after the fact, and everyone has piggybacked on it.
If the center of the Jewish world had already been destroyed, it’s hard to believe no NT book would mention it. -
No, they understand that, which is why instead of agreeing with standard archaelogy and logic to see that Revelation was written around 95 AD they have to claim it was written before 70 AD. They realize the entire doctrine collapses otherwise. Exile to Patmos is a common penalty handed out when Domitian was the emperor.
In the midst of his treatment of the significance of 666, Irenaeus dates John’s visions to “the end of Domitian’s reign.”[4] Furthermore, Irenaeus says that John ministered in Asia Minor until he died during the reign of Roman Emperor Trajan (A.D. 98-117).[5] Due to Irenaeus’s testimony, many interpreters, ancient and modern, date Revelation during Emperor Domitian’s reign (A.D. 81-96).
It is very clear in Matthew 24 that some of what Jesus says pertains specifically to the disciples listening to Him.
However, no verse is of its own interpretation. Matthew 24 is addressing a very specific question, the sign of the Lord's coming.
Jesus says: Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." This happened to the apostles. This precedes the second coming as a testimony sealed in their blood. But this was not fulfilled prior to 70 AD. We know that John lived till the end of Domitians reign, he was persecuted, he was put to death even though that didn't work, and he was hated by all. So this prophecy was fulfilled with the death of all apostles including John and it precedes the Lord's second coming, hence claiming Matt 24 in its entirety was fulfilled in 70 AD is proved false by the Lord Jesus' words in Matthew 24. Question is, do you believe Jesus, or do you believe others?
Does "all" mean all? Does "This generation" mean "this generation"? Jesus meant what he said. All those things were fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Judas Died by suicide shortly after betraying Jesus, around 33 AD.
James (son of Zebedee) The first apostle to be martyred, executed by sword by Herod Agrippa I in Jerusalem around 44 AD.
Peter Crucified upside down in Rome during Nero's persecution, around 64-67 AD.
Paul Beheaded in Rome, likely around 67 AD.
Andrew Crucified in Patras, Greece, on an X-shaped cross, often dated 60-70 AD.
Thomas Martyred in India, with dates ranging from 60-72 AD.
Philip Crucified/executed in Hierapolis (Asia Minor).
Matthew Martyred in Ethiopia 65-70 AD.
James (son of Alphaeus) Stoned or clubbed to death in Jerusalem.
Simon the Zealot Martyred in Persia or Syria.
Thaddeus (Jude) Martyred in Persia or Armenia.
Bartholomew Martyred in Armenia, possibly flayed and beheaded.
John Believed to be the only apostle to die of natural causes at an old age in Ephesus, around 90-100 AD.
Matthias (replacement for Judas) Stoned and beheaded, according to tradition around 80 AD.
That refers to the generation when the fig tree sprouts again after a long winter. That is a reference to the generation that begins in 1948.
It could not possibly refer to the generation that was listening to him because that generation according to the Bible will last at least 70 years and that would take it to 100 AD, way after 70 AD and that debunks any doctrine about 70 AD being the fulfillment.
Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The context of the word "this" is referring to the fig tree putting forth leaves and letting you know that summer (the Day of the Lord) is near.
The dry bones returning to Israel after the holocaust was a major sign indicating that the day of the Lord was near.
"all these things" refers to this fig tree sprouting again fulfilling Ezekiel's prophecy of the dry bones. There was no such fulfillment prior to 70 AD.
Correct.
There is no evidence that Nero habitually sent exiles to Patmos.
Nero’s punishments were usually executions, not island exile
During Nero’s reign (54–68 AD), his persecution of Christians—especially after the Great Fire of Rome—mainly involved public executions in Rome rather than exile. Historical accounts describe Christians being tortured or killed as spectacles.
Furthermore, no NT writers spoke to the first Roman-Jewish 66AD war either.
And most New Testament books don’t name the reigning emperor either.
Only three references exist and only ONE in any book other than the four gospels:
-Augustus in the birth narrative of Jesus
-Tiberius when John the Baptist begins preaching
-Claudius mentioned in Acts of the Apostles
After that, the letters mostly speak more generally about “governing authorities.”
Exactly!!!
Ultimately it is also a denial of the completed work of Christ Jesus.
The "fiery trial" of 1 Peter wasn't a global apocalypse. It was the AD 70 fire dismantling the Old Covenant shadows. The elements melted so the New Covenant could remain.
And how about this!!
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 2:29
Isn't it the best thing ever @Charlesiii to just trust the words of Christ Jesus completely, His words are true and should never be manipulated.
This eschatology business waaaaayy past your pay grade. And @HeIsHere too.
For most it is just too "complicated". So they dumb it way down and then offer a few nonchalant snippets as proof.
However, decades of intense study always yields the same result:
Premillennialism and futurism (so called) is the only correct solution.
All prophecies satisfied perfectly, no loose ends, no paradoxes.
Oh and BTW, Israel (the Nation) has been reconstituted, and Israelites (the Sons of Jacob) are back in the land. Ooooppss.