What REALLY is Faith That Scripture Upholds?

[homwardbound]

The Law is not yet passed away.

No it is not. Still in place for those not yet in belief to the done work of Son for them to be led new in truth.
Romans 7 and 8 is clear on this to me, and thank you

That's not to say that we must try to live it today and that doing so will earn us any rewards. What I've come to understand about the Law is that its existence today is the force of indictment against unbelief. It's also by the Law that we know what sin is, as Paul declared. The writers of Hebrews gave to us the clue about the Law still in force today against the unbelieving world:

Agreed

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 7:11-12 in accordance thanks

Notice the present tense of the above statement. Hebrews, which is thought to have been written some 30 years after Christ's ascension. Where it's true that some out there like to think that tense within the texts of scriptures have no real meaning, that wishful thinking is nothing but an attempt to try and preserve one's chosen beliefs over against the scriptures they give lip service to being authoritative...so long as those scriptures don't interfere with chosen beliefs...

With our being dead to the Law and therefore no longer under its curse nor a requirement for obedience unto the Law for our salvation, some out there still practice it religiously, such as my Messianic friends. That's not to say they are wrong for doing so, but when some make it a matter of salvation, that's when the problems begin.

Agreed, so thankful Father has gotten you to see and be willing too. I do not know everything, just learning new daily in process thanks to God for us all
Thank you much MM

 

[Watchman22]

How do you know what the father will see when you stand before him? You know the mind of God?

Matt 25:31-46. That's all irrelevant nonsense right? That or it doesn't pertain to you right?

Yup, it's called the mind of Christ. And if you have it , you know it.

 

[Nedsk]

Yup, it's called the mind of Christ. And if you have it , you know it.

And you believe God thinks you have it.

 

[Watchman22]

And you believe God thinks you have it.

Your asking the wrong questions.

 

[Nedsk]

Your asking the wrong questions.

Maybe but you're believing that wrong things

 

[Watchman22]

Maybe but you're believing that wrong things

The word "believing " is a mistranslation. If I were you, I would exorcize it from your vocabulary.

 

[Nedsk]

The word "believing " is a mistranslation. If I were you, I would exorcize it from your vocabulary.

Again all you need to do is prove your understanding of Scripture is authoritative. With my eternal soul hanging in the balance I have to choose whether to read Scripture or listen to a rando on the Internet. Even you should be able to determine which ill choose

 

[Musicmaster]

Admittedly, my understanding of the mosaic law only goes so far.

No worries. As an Israeli, I too am at times floored at the complexities and extent of the Law, but it is holy and good.

I understand that the book of Hebrews was written at that time for the Hebrews. I as a Gentile grafted on, i understand Christ to be the law incarnate. He as His words tell me what sin is.

Yes, it was indeed written to Israel who were under the Kingdom Gospel. The grafting of Gentiles wasn't into Israel but rather into Christ given that He is the Vine and we all are the branches. Unbelieving Israel has been cut off and cast aside, with the remnant of us still remaining as a part of the body of Christ rather than distinct as Israeli's.

As for my understanding of faith, which is the fulfillment of pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. When God accepted my surrendered life, the law and many other things are nolonger any of my business anymore, those things are Gods business now.

That's one way of putting it. Yes. We of Israel who are in Christ are in the same body of Christ as Gentiles within the Gospel of Grace. We're no different in any way, and we too will live in the Heavenlies along with Gentiles, not a part of the Kingdom to come and the bride. That is for my fellow Israelis who will live through the tribulation and those resurrected at the Second Coming at the end of the tribulation to also enter in to that Kingdom.

So I don't know why the mosaic law has any bearing on anything for us today. When we stand before the Father, He's going to see Christ, the embodiment of the completed law. Not the law itself.

I think I'm on the same page with you, I just consider the law to be none of my business now.

We are indeed not concerned with the curse of the Law, yes. However, the Law is still good. That's one of the things I like about Ray Comfort's ministry to the unsaved when he uses the Law to show the unsaved what it is they are under. Rationale: Given that we in Christ are not under the Law, that means that those outside of Christ are under the Law and its curse and condemnation. Makes sense, right?

So, you're right in that the Law no longer is a concern to us and our eternal destiny, but it IS the means by which we understand what an enormous weight of guilt and condemnation the unsaved are under, which should drive us all share the Gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) with all the unsaved that we can. So, yes, we are indeed on the same page if not on the topic for the value the Law serves in the world today.

MM

 

[Watchman22]

Again all you need to do is prove your understanding of Scripture is authoritative. With my eternal soul hanging in the balance I have to choose whether to read Scripture or listen to a rando on the Internet. Even you should be able to determine which ill choose

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

 

[Nedsk]

This is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.

It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.

What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.

Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?

It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.

What is the Greek word pisteuo?

"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".

Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?

There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.

So what did William Tindale do?

Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.

Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek

2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.

3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.

4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".

5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."

6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.

7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )

Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

The most important word in Scripture is Jesus. Plain and simple.

I like faithing (verb) which may by why James says faith is completed by works. That a faith without works is dead.

BTW you still haven't offered evidence that your understanding of Scripture is authoritative

 

[Watchman22]

The most important word in Scripture is Jesus. Plain and simple.

I like faithing (verb) which may by why James says faith is completed by works. That a faith without works is dead.

BTW you still haven't offered evidence that your understanding of Scripture is authoritative

I haven't offered any advice on scripture.

We have to deal with a correct understanding of faith first. Without faithing correctly, Jesus, His word, and the promises in His word cannot be ours.

 

[Nedsk]

I haven't offered any advice on scripture.

We have to deal with a correct understanding of faith first. Without faithing correctly, Jesus, His word, and the promises in His word cannot be ours.

Well when Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father" I believe him over you.

 

[Watchman22]

Well when Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father" I believe him over you.

And if the word of God is yours by faith and faithing, you should. Only you and God know if your continually surrendering your life to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender.

If your done stompping your feet, you could take advantage and ask some relevant questions.

I didn't make the best first impression, thats on me.

 

[Watchman22]

No it is not. Still in place for those not yet in belief to the done work of Son for them to be led new in truth.
Romans 7 and 8 is clear on this to me, and thank you

Agreed

Hebrews 7:11-12 in accordance thanks

Agreed, so thankful Father has gotten you to see and be willing too. I do not know everything, just learning new daily in process thanks to God for us all
Thank you much MM

Hi HB,
You liked my post concerning the mind of Christ. I'm intrigued. What do you think about starting a thread on the mind of Christ.

 

[Nedsk]

And if the word of God is yours by faith and faithing, you should. Only you and God know if your continually surrendering your life to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender.

If your done stompping your feet, you could take advantage and ask some relevant questions.

I didn't make the best first impression, thats on me.

Why would I use questions? The words of Jesus and other passages in Scripture do not lead me to conclude that faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

 

[Watchman22]

Why would I use questions? The words of Jesus and other passages in Scripture do not lead me to conclude that faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

Being such a proponent of faith and faithing, I've always wondered what people mean when they say "faith alone".
Could you give me an explanation to what that means?

 

[Nedsk]

Being such a proponent of faith and faithing, I've always wondered what people mean when they say "faith alone".
Could you give me an explanation to what that means?

Sure. The people who believe reciting the magic incantation brings them salvation. That believing or having faith in Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that works are meaningless for salvation. They claim works "prove" faith but have no bearing on salvation. Why does faith need to be proved? And it needs to be proved to who? God is the only one that matters and he knows if we have faith or nothing so why discuss works at all. It would be like discussing swimwear when talking about space travel.

 

[Watchman22]

Sure. The people who believe reciting the magic incantation brings them salvation. That believing or having faith in Jesus is sufficient for salvation and that works are meaningless for salvation. They claim works "prove" faith but have no bearing on salvation. Why does faith need to be proved? And it needs to be proved to who? God is the only one that matters and he knows if we have faith or nothing so why discuss works at all. It would be like discussing swimwear when talking about space travel.

Im still not sure what your saying precisely.

The people that recite something stating they accept Jesus. That is wrong or right?

I guess it would be easier for you to explain what faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, is and how they are applied or fulfilled that results in receiving the Spirit of Christ.

What is your understanding of the application of faith that saves?

 

[Nedsk]

Im still not sure what your saying precisely.

The people that recite something stating they accept Jesus. That is wrong or right?

I guess it would be easier for you to explain what faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, is and how they are applied or fulfilled that results in receiving the Spirit of Christ.

What is your understanding of the application of faith that saves?

I don't think the question is whether it's right or wrong but is just reciting the magic incantation enough to ensure salvation?

My understanding is what I read in Scripture, that no it does not ensure salvation. Scripture says faith without works is dead and faith is made complete by works. If that's true, and if its in Scripture it must be true, then faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Something that is sufficient, by definition, does not need completion by something else. Now you either understand that or you don't.

 

[Watchman22]

I don't think the question is whether it's right or wrong but is just reciting the magic incantation enough to ensure salvation?

My understanding is what I read in Scripture, that no it does not ensure salvation. Scripture says faith without works is dead and faith is made complete by works. If that's true, and if its in Scripture it must be true, then faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Something that is sufficient, by definition, does not need completion by something else. Now you either understand that or you

I'm not trying to frustrate you or play a game. But I'm going to pressure you for the answers I need to understand your understanding of faith.

I understand that NT faith, pistis in the Greek, and the active form of faith, pisteuo in the Greek, cannot be fulfilled without works and effort. But, not a work and effort that is added to the completed work of Christ.

The Father called you out. You turned in your mind to the caller as an act of repentance. Then you took your first step of faith, the active form of faith towards the caller. What did that step of faith look like?