Loss of salvation???

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In regard to 1 John 5:16, certain folks jump to the conclusion that John is talking about a believer committing a certain sin that leads them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
 
Typical.

Verse ping pong.

What is your reply to MY verses?

Do you have one?

Are you unable to explain the verses I posted to YOU?

I thought we were discussing BELIEVERS
NOT hypocrites.
For believers, the blessings are the beatitudes, the curses are laid out in the parable of the unclean spirits, human nature abhors a spiritual vacuum as much as mother nature abhors an airless vacuum.
 
Getting a reward in heaven is not a prophecy.

It's found in the NT and should be explained within the NT.

Were rewards being handed out in the OT??
Everyone in the afterlife will be united with what they worship for eternity, as an extension of your existing spiritual relationship. You worship God through Jesus, you'll be rewarded with an everlasting relationship with Jesus; you worship Satan through the Beast, you'll be "rewarded" with an everlasting relationship with the Beast.
 
In regard to 1 John 5:16, certain folks jump to the conclusion that John is talking about a believer committing a certain sin that leads them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Deliberately is not in the text nor is it implied
 
Of course there are! People who call themself Christian, who have not been regenerated. I'm actually astounded that anyone on this forum would make such a statement.

You are saying then that anyone who says they are Christian are in fact baptized into Christ, a new creation?

Much love!
Regardless of what a person thinks or believes about themselves, there are only Christians and non-Christians.

Our perception of our standing with God should be one of humbleness.

I realize this is not a popular view but no one knows their own heart, much less the hearts of others.

Terms such as "baptized into Christ" are biblical but metaphysical in nature. An assumed state of being.

You may be baptized into Christ or simply projecting that status upon yourself.

Beware the sin of presumption.
 
You are still trying a work around to arrive at your view. A verb is a verb, it denotes the action. You have to start there. A perfect tense verb is an action - not the result, the action itself - and then we understand from the syntax - it's tense - that the effect of the action endures.

Hebrews has a great example of this, "we have become (perfect tense) partakers of Christ if we hold our confidence to the end". The conditional part, If we hold our confidence to the end, is what shows whether or not we have now actually become partakers of Christ. The perfect tense shows it endures, and if it doesn't (then), this means we had not become (perfect tense) partakers of Christ (now).

Here again the tense shows the endurance of the result of the action, with the contition showing whether or not that action had actually occured.

Much love!
Actually, my view is the grammar.

You're pretty well stuck and misunderstanding or ignoring grammatical scholarship I've given you.

Firstly, you're using 'syntax' incorrectly; the issue with the perfect tense verb is not a matter of word order or arrangement of words, but a matter of what the verb means.

Next, you're continually working to deny the main point of the perfect tense verb, which is the current state and not the past action.

Then, you have too much invested in the past action lasting forever, which the perfect tense does not state.
  • The perfect tense only shows that something in endures - or has endured - up to the current point under discussion.
Now you're using all of that error to misread the meaning of a perfect tense verb combined with a 3rd class conditional statement.

It looks to me like you're so locked into the past action that you are not seeing the present state focus of the perfect tense.

You are effectively turning a perfect tense into an aorist tense which would make Heb3:14 say:
  • 'you became metachoi if you hold fast until the end'
    • You're trying to make the past a matter of the future, which goes against the analogies you were originally suggesting.
A correct view of Heb3:14 with the conditional statement being forward looking (until the end) is;
  • 'you were made metachoi and are currently metachoi and will be metachoi at the end if you hold fast until the end.'
    • The condition is not undoing the past.
    • The condition is saying your current state will last if you hold fast until the end.
    • The condition is saying your current state will not last until the end if you do not hold fast until the end.
You're still missing the power of the perfect tense having a focus on a current state
  • If the current state of a perfect tense verb were to go on forever, then the conditional clause is redundant.
 
Sin onto death is punishment.
Punishment is for those whom chastening was rejected....

Parents chasten their children.
Parents will punish children who refuse to heed chastening.
Please finish the logic of the analogy:

Sin onto death is punishment.​
Punishment is for those whom chastening was rejected....​
Parents chasten their children.​
Parents will punish children who refuse to heed chastening.​
Parents will kill their children for whom chastening was rejected...
 
Deliberately is not in the text nor is it implied
Sinless perfection is not implied.

1 John 5:18 - We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (AMPC)

As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains:

1 John 5:16
Sinneth not
(ουχ αμαρτανε). Lineal present active indicative, "does not keep on sinning," as he has already shown in 1 John 3:4-10.


This certainly is deliberate.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not
Sinneth not
(ουχ αμαρτανε). Linear present (linear μενων, keeps on abiding) active indicative of αμαρτανω, "does not keep on sinning." For μενω (abide) see 1 John 2:6; John 15:4-10.

Whosoever sinneth (ο αμαρτανων). Present (linear) active articular participle like μενων above, "the one who keeps on sinning" (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as αμαρτησας, aorist active participle, would mean).

Hath not seen him (ουχ εωρακεν αυτον). Perfect active indicative of οραω. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (εγνωκεν, perfect active also) of Christ. He means, of course, spiritual vision and spiritual knowledge, not the literal sense of οραω in John 1:18; John 20:29.

1 John 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
 
Says nowhere in Scripture
Is it so?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)

Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:18-19)
 
Sin onto death is punishment.
Punishment is for those whom chastening was rejected....

Parents chasten their children.
Parents will punish children who refuse to heed chastening.

If the sin onto were for being an unbeliever?
All unbelievers would be miserable, and die before their time.

Here speaks of the sin unto death.

For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died."
1 Corinthians 11:29-30
.....
What is the distinction between the many who are "weak and sick" and the "quite a few have died"?
 
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God leaves atheists alone.
He only disciplines and deals with his own children.

If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father
does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then
you are bastards and not sons. Hebrews 12:7-8​

.
You're saying that God leaves atheists alone?
But He chastens His own children.

Sounds like God treats atheists better than His own children.

Also,
In your previous post you stated that God causes atheists to have miserable deaths.
How is that leaving them alone?

This sounds confusing.
 
Regardless of what a person thinks or believes about themselves, there are only Christians and non-Christians.

Our perception of our standing with God should be one of humbleness.

I realize this is not a popular view but no one knows their own heart, much less the hearts of others.

Terms such as "baptized into Christ" are biblical but metaphysical in nature. An assumed state of being.

You may be baptized into Christ or simply projecting that status upon yourself.

Beware the sin of presumption.
There is no sin of presumption. We can know of we are saved. Scripture says so.
 
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What is the distinction between the many who are "weak and sick" and the "quite a few have died"?
In regard to 1 Corinthians 11:29, we read - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers and not spiritual death or soul sleep (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).
 
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The New Testament does not contain incorrect information. However, the New Testament was NEVER intended to be used the way you use it, which is prone to incorrect interpretations. It seems your approach to the Bible is to begin with what you already know to be true and then find verses that seem to say what you want to hear. Instead, we should approach the scriptures as those who want to be taught by them.

I didn't say that. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

God doesn't make us do anything. You clearly didn't understand what I posted to you. Go back and read it again. If not, at least admit your strategy. You are following a script or a playbook. You have preprogrammed responses to statements that sound "Reformed." If he says "this". I say that. You aren't really trying to follow the argument, are you?

No, you posted verses, which associate belief with Salvation. There is a distinction. You hear causation where none was intended.

I addressed them.

I did.

Did he draw each and every man to himself? No. So interpretation isn't true on the face it. And since you quoted out of context, you don't really know what Jesus meant.

The context of John 12 shows that the crowd gathering around Jesus was no longer made up only of local Jews—Greeks were now seeking Him as well. Against that backdrop, Jesus’ statement about drawing “all men” to Himself is best understood as inclusive of all kinds of people, not every individual without exception. His point is that the saving power of the cross will extend beyond Israel and reach the nations, just as John consistently emphasizes throughout his Gospel. In other words, people of every group—Jew and Greek, near and far—will be drawn to Him, not merely the immediate crowd standing before Him.


As I said, I am not a Calvinist.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, but where does it say it can be resisted?

I don't believe in irresistible grace.

I don't see the problem.

I am not a Calvinist.

Were you speaking to me? I don't think so. I agree that Romans 9, 10, and 11 form a complete unit. In those chapters, Paul is defending his gospel against those who accuse him of false teaching. His gospel seems to suggest that God's promises to Israel have failed and that God is starting again with the Gentiles. Paul denies this and sets out to prove it.

Glorified is in the Aorist tense, grouped with a list of other verbs, each in the aorist tense. This construction alerts the reader that all of the verbs form a complete unit and cannot be separated.

You assume I am a Calvinist and place all that on me. I never said I was a Calvinist. I said I believe another way but you have made it clear that you don't want to know what that is. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.


Paul is explaining that there is a fundamental difference between those who grasp spiritual truths and those who cannot. The distinction is not intelligence or education but the presence and work of the Holy Spirit. The person without the Spirit finds the things of God unintelligible, while the person enlightened by the Spirit is able to perceive and embrace them.




Yes, he did. Of course he did. He was talking about those born of the Spirit. What else do you need to know?

That's what I said. It sounds like you don't know what being born again is?

Right. I never said otherwise.


If the “natural man” is unable to grasp the things of God, then he is also unable to grasp the gospel itself, since the gospel is the central message of God’s revelation. And if he cannot truly understand the gospel, he cannot, on his own, make a meaningful or saving decision to believe it. Paul’s point is that apart from the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit, the message of Christ remains foolishness, not something a person can freely and spiritually embrace.

Do you see what is happening here? Once we focus on the scriptures, you begin to make my points for me.

What do you want to know about it? BTW, I don't agree with the Reformed interpretation of "dead" in Ephesians 2:1. They hold that "dead" here refers to the privation of our will and mind, resulting in our inability to believe in Jesus Christ. I hold that "dead" in this context refers to our status as those worthy of punishment and condemnation at the final judgment.
Sorry Roger316.

I will not be sitting here an hour responding to the above.

If you ever care to address one topic,
let me know.

And it's been rather dishonest of you to insist that you're not a calvinist when all your theologyh is calvinist in nature.
 
You have quoted the verse out of context, which is perhaps the reason you don't seem to understand it. Let's quote the surrounding verses.

Ephesians 1:4-6
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Paul believes in salvation by inheritance, which is why he continually refers to "the adoption as sons." We talked about this before.

Romans 8:15
Romans 8:23
Romans 9:4
Galatians 4:5
Ephesians 1:5

If we are sons of Abraham, Paul argues, then we shall inherit what the Father has left us, i.e., salvation.


I considered that interpretation until I noticed Paul double use of the term "US" as in "he predestined us (1) to be us (2) in him . . ."

Technically, Paul isn't giving us the plan of salvation in Ephesians chapter one; Rather, he is listing all of the Spiritual Blessings that God gave his son and those "in him."

What was your point back then? I don't remember.

Think about it logically. Paul lists a group of leaders; he didn't list a group of workers, or children or wives or any other kind of person. You would think that if Paul meant ALL MEN as you suggest, he would have given a random cross-section of the human population.


He doesn't.
You have stated that God does not want all men to be saved.

That took long enough.

So, YOU claim I don't understand the NT.....

seems to me that YOU do not understand it.

It clearly and specifially states that God loves the whole world
and that God desires that all men be saved....

however, you have just stated that not all men are saved because God does not want them to.

And
this is an uderstandable reply.
Why?
Because if you CORRECTLY answered,,,,,you'd leave calvinism right now.

What you need to do is harmonize WHY all men are not saved
with
God's desire that they be saved.

You have NOT done that but you have correctly replied as a reformed/calvinist would due to their theology.


HERE IS THE CORRECT ANSWER ROGER:

All men are not saved as God desires....
BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WISH TO BE SAVED.

BECAUSE THERE ARE CONDITIONS THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO MEET.

FREE WILL causes such problems to calvinist theology!
 
Sin onto death is punishment.
Punishment is for those whom chastening was rejected....

So now you're saying that God TRIED to chasent his children....
but they rejected the chastening
so now God is punishing them instead.

Didn't you say that God punishes just the unsaved?


Parents chasten their children.
Parents will punish children who refuse to heed chastening.

If the sin onto were for being an unbeliever?
All unbelievers would be miserable, and die before their time.
OK
Two things Gene:

1. This topic is of no interest to me because, as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with soteriology.
2. Your comments seem to be conflicting....it might just be that I'm not understanding.

Here speaks of the sin unto death.

For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died."
1 Corinthians 11:29-30
.....
So now God will KILL those who disobey?

Yes. I know about Ananias and also I've lost the thread of these posts and will not continue further.
I'd have to go back to check your original statements and I just do not intend to. Sorry.
 
For believers, the blessings are the beatitudes, the curses are laid out in the parable of the unclean spirits, human nature abhors a spiritual vacuum as much as mother nature abhors an airless vacuum.
Still no reply to my scritpure.

And I'd love an explantion of HOW those in the beatitudes in Matthew 5 are blessed IF.

THEY ARE POOR IN SPIRIT
THE MOURN
THEY HUNGER AND THIRST
THEY HAVE BEEN PERSECUTED

But, I'd really like for you to go back,,,,post my scripture....
and then explain why you do not agree with it.
 
Everyone in the afterlife will be united with what they worship for eternity, as an extension of your existing spiritual relationship. You worship God through Jesus, you'll be rewarded with an everlasting relationship with Jesus; you worship Satan through the Beast, you'll be "rewarded" with an everlasting relationship with the Beast.
Sorry Lovette....
You do not reply,,,you make statements,,,you change the topic.

I'm just not able to deal with your posts.
Nothing personal toward you.