Loss of salvation???

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Toknow said:
Your inheritance is being held for you in heaven.
You do not have it yet.
Because the possibility exists that you may NOT endure to the end...as the NT teaches that we must.


Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.



As per the same Peter which you have just quoted.


1 Peter 1:7-9
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Verse 9 The outcome of our faith will be salvation.
Faith is required for salvation....
throughout our entire life.


And we must hold firm till the end:


Colossians 1:20-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,



Please advise WHAT IS the imperishable seed?
Is it the word of God,,,as you've stated...
or is it your salvation?


1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
24 For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,
25 BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.
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The imperishable seed is God's word. It causes those who receive it to be born again. Now if you are born of God, then you have eternal life. What part of eternal is so hard to understand?

I will not use the word "salvation" because it's meaning has become so vague as to be near useless in OSAS discussions. Christians can and do fail to live in the light of the reality of being born again. That's why there is provision in God for restoration and forgiveness.

Christians have an internal war between the flesh and the Spirit. I know of nobody who has attained to immediate perfection in their Christian life. Since I've been born again for 54 years, I've met quite a few believers.

I'll say this again, as it seems to have escaped your notice. There is the initial, born again experience that is eternal and cannot be lost. Then there is what the Bible calls the deliverance (aka salvation) of the soul. God's intent is that the soul realm become completely alinged with the new, born again spirit. This is a lifetime process. Those who either do not understand this or don't want to know, will remain in confusion and self deception.
 
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Gideon300 said:
The imperishable seed is God's word. It causes those who receive it to be born again. Now if you are born of God, then you have eternal life. What part of eternal is so hard to understand?

I will not use the word "salvation" because it's meaning has become so vague as to be near useless in OSAS discussions. Christians can and do fail to live in the light of the reality of being born again. That's why there is provision in God for restoration and forgiveness.

Christians have an internal war between the flesh and the Spirit. I know of nobody who has attained to immediate perfection in their Christian life. Since I've been born again for 54 years, I've met quite a few believers.

I'll say this again, as it seems to have escaped your notice. There is the initial, born again experience that is eternal and cannot be lost. Then there is what the Bible calls the deliverance (aka salvation) of the soul. God's intent is that the soul realm become completely alinged with the new, born again spirit. This is a lifetime process. Those who either do not understand this or don't want to know, will remain in confusion and self deception.
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You have not replied to colossians 1:20-23 which clearly states loss of salvation.

You have not replied to Hebrews 3:14

You have not posted any scripture so what you've written is your opinion.

Also, I never mentioned sinless perfection and never will.

Christian language is no longer understandable between two Christians.
I thought we agreed for a short time...only to find that you use the same words as I do...
but they have a different meaning.

Please reply to Colossians 1
Please reply to Hebrews 3

Please use scripture to support your views and to show that salvation cannot be forfeited.

Thanks.
 
Toknow said:
Your verses sure do conflict with the ones that state that salvation could be lost.
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Show me the words, "lost salvation" in Scripture.
Toknow said:
Even JESUS stated that it could.
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To the contrary:

John 6:37 - Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Toknow said:
I wonder if there's a solution to all this conflict?
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Context and Hermeneutics.
Toknow said:
Here is what JESUS taught:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

1. They HEAR (in Greek to hear means to understand and even to accept) and receive the word with joy.
THEY RECEIVE THE WORD.
They have accepted God.
They are born again.

2. BUT
they believe only FOR A WHILE.
THEY BELIEVE....they are born again.

BUT ONLY FOR A WHILE.

3. Then, Jesus said, due to temptation
THEY FALL AWAY.
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You took it too far. In regard to Luke 8:13, the seed fell into rocky soil, which resulted in a shallow, temporary belief that had no root, produceed no fruit (faith without works is dead) and withered away. Salvation never took root so there was no loss of salvation. In CONTRAST with the 4th soil, where the seed fell on good ground which represents those who heard the word with an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance (Luke 8:15).
Toknow said:
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

1. The prodigal son has come to life AGAIN.
This means he was
saved
lost
saved again.

2. AGAIN means the son was somewhere,,,
then left...
then was somewhere AGAIN...
he went back to being saved.
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Context. All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) Eternal IN-securists will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NASB).
Toknow said:
John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; d

1. Notice that the branch is IN JESUS.
It is a saved person.
The saved person does not bear fruit.
He (God) takes away the branch.
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In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Toknow said:
Jesus taught that it is possible to lose our salvation.
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According to your eisegesis, YES but according to Scripture, NO.
 
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Toknow said:
You have not replied to colossians 1:20-23 which clearly states loss of salvation.

You have not replied to Hebrews 3:14

You have not posted any scripture so what you've written is your opinion.

Also, I never mentioned sinless perfection and never will.

Christian language is no longer understandable between two Christians.
I thought we agreed for a short time...only to find that you use the same words as I do...
but they have a different meaning.

Please reply to Colossians 1
Please reply to Hebrews 3

Please use scripture to support your views and to show that salvation cannot be forfeited.

Thanks.
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Did you not read anything I said? I quit using the word salvation. I've said what I've said. If that is not enough, I'm done.
 
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studier said:
If the current state of a perfect tense verb were to go on forever, then the conditional clause is redundant.
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The point is that the conditional clause shows whether the state denoted by the perfect tense is actually real.

You have been made a forever partaker if you hold to the end. If you don't hold to the end, you were not made a forever partaker.

Much love!
 
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Toknow said:
And you really need to stop being condescending.
YOU do not confuse ME.

You are not capable of confusing me.
It's just that I DO NOT AGREE with you.
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I always assume that miscommunication is my fault and not the other person's. If you were not confused, then I apologize.

Are you reading the text I provided? Do you NOT see that the Apostles are encouraging their readers to rejoice because they are suffering? Does that sound normal? Do people naturally rejoice when they suffer? Isn't the basis of their joy the fact that they will not lose their salvation?
 
studier said:
I know RBT teaching when I see it and the first time I read one of your posts I saw him in you. And I know his Angelic Conflict doctrine when I read it, and it is different than Barnhouse.

I also know his and others' teaching re: connecting divine discipline of God's sons to the sin unto death. I asked you a few questions about 1John5 some posts ago and you breezed right past them, just like you breezed right past discussions after you thought your question about the Eph2:8 verb tense would settle eternal security for us.

Now you're going to ignore questions about a very simple question I asked you about 1Cor3:11-15 in response to your posting it as theoretically proving loss of rewards instead of loss of salvation.

You're no more self-taught than I was a few decades ago, before I learned to read and analyze Scripture for myself. I'm still learning as is anyone who is still actually dealing with our Text. So, if you're going to proof-text me, let's get into the Scripture instead of pasting it like it's argument over.

If you're not able to discuss Scriptures you post, then why post them? There are some students of the Text here well able to discuss them to some depth. What else are we here for? Let's learn something.
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What is your goal with this one?

What is your desired outcome?
 
studier said:
Now you're going to ignore questions about a very simple question I asked you about 1Cor3:11-15 in response to your posting it as theoretically proving loss of rewards instead of loss of salvation.
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I'm sorry...
Where do I look for that post with your question?
Ever consider I do not know what you are referring to?
 
Lamar said:
Stop hiding behind pronouns and answer his question.

Post 9250 does not answer how we can know that the pronouns are referring to us or someone else.
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Typical CoC.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." - John 10:27-28 ESV
 
Lamar said:
Thank you. That is quite kind of you to notice.


Do you even have the intellectual honesty to describe the antecedent of the they/them pronouns in the passage you cited?
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I'm not sure what is at stake here, but the antecedent of the pronouns they/them is "my sheep."

Now, the existential question you might be raising is, "How do I know that I am one of Jesus sheep such that I will receive eternal life?"

The simple answer to that question, as @Night Twister points out, is that the Holy Spirit lets us know.
 
markss said:
The point is that the conditional clause shows whether the state denoted by the perfect tense is actually real.

You have been made a forever partaker if you hold to the end. If you don't hold to the end, you were not made a forever partaker.

Much love!
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No, the conditional clause is forward looking, not backward. If the condition is not met, then the present state is not retained. If you'd like, I'm happy to post instruction from Wallace and/or Robertson to explain how the Greek 3rd-class condition works - in this case an intensified 3rd-class condition.

NKJ Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
  • You decide what you think "brothers" mean here
  • Brothers are being warned - actually commanded - to pay close attention, to watch, to be aware
  • The condition of an evil heart of unbelief - an evil unbelieving heart - is something they are commanded not to have in the future
  • The phrase 'in the departure/withdrawal/revolt' is an articular infinitive with a governing preposition - it's telling us that this is contemporaneous in time with the potential future unbelieving heart or the means by which it take place.
  • This is context for Heb3:14:
    • 'Brothers' as I read Hebrews is talking about Christian brothers - mainly Jewish Christian brothers.
    • They are being warned to watch-out, to pay close attention
    • They are being warned so their currently believing hearts do not become evil, unbelieving hearts in the future
    • The potential for their hearts to be evil, unbelieving hearts
      • Is either caused by withdrawing/revolting from the living God
      • or more likely, while departing from the living God - denoting a process
      • or these 2 things combined
  • This is what most who see loss of faith in apostasy are talking about
    • It's not the silly 'how man sins' must we do - the dumb 'what's the dividing line'
    • It's about turning from belief to unbelief that happens as a process while/by withdrawing from God until it is complete as He may determine.
NKJ Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
  • Rather than going from belief to unbelief in departing from God,
    • brothers are commanded to exhort/encourage one another each day - while it is called "today"
      • (remember this for Heb3:14 "until the end")
      • for this purpose: so none of them are hardened by deceitfulness of the sin
        • the hardening is the evil heart of unbelief
        • 'sin' is articular and likely referring back to the deceitfulness of the sin of departing from God which seems from the language above to be a process - deception will be involved in the departing - the hardening - the believing heart becoming an evil, unbelieving heart.
NKJ Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
  • This begins with "for" - it is explaining the 2 prior verses
  • We have become and are now Christ's metachoi
    • Note the author includes himself
    • Note he has been commanding 'brothers'
    • Note they are commanded so their hearts in the future not be evil, unbelieving - hardened
    • Note this is speaking about withdrawing (from where they are now0
    • The perfect tense is focused on their present state of being:
      • brothers
      • not having evil, unbelieving hearts
      • being with God
      • being Christ's metachoi
      • This is their current reality
    • The conditional clause is forward-looking - not backward
      • It says a future condition will exist if the condition is met
        • It does not say the currently existing reality will be undone retroactively
        • It says the current reality will not be the future reality if the condition is not met
    • The condition of holding fast/adhering firmly to/maintaining possession of what they had in persistence in the beginning until the end
      • Men don't hold fast what they never had
      • what they had in the beginning trends back to the past aspect of the perfect tense when they became Christ's metachoi - they believed - they became 'with God' (not departed from God) - and there is a marker here which the NKJ translates as "steadfast" and I just noted as "persistence" - so it seems to be speaking not just about initial belief, but also an initial, persistent belief.
      • "until the end" ties back to "while it is called today" - telling us that in the end it will no longer be called 'today' and the potential for becoming unbelieving and for withdrawing from the living God will be over.
At first we were discussing the morphology of the perfect verb tense.

Now I have laid out some of the syntax and have explained some more of the grammar and meaning of words and phrases.

As I offered, I'm happy to provide more excerpts from Wallace and some from Robertson that discuss the forward-looking and contingent meaning of the 3rd-class condition.

From what I see you doing, you are misinterpreting not only the perfect tense present reality at the time of writing, but now you are also misinterpreting the conditional statement. It does not undo the a current reality in the past - it says the future is contingent, which ties perfectly to the author warning brothers of not moving from belief to hardened unbelief - of not departing from currently being with God - of not holding in possession what they had and currently have.
 
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I've responded in detail. Now a couple simple responses:
markss said:
The point is that the conditional clause shows whether the state denoted by the perfect tense is actually real.
Click to expand...
No, the perfect tense in itself is saying current reality - not contingent current reality.
markss said:
You have been made a forever partaker if you hold to the end. If you don't hold to the end, you were not made a forever partaker.
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No, you will be a forever partaker if you hold fast to the end. If you don't hold fast to the end, you will no longer be a partaker at the end (or anywhere from now until the end when you withdraw from the living God / do not hold fast your confidence).

BTW, I had a discussion with @Mem earlier about some thoughts on the word being translated as 'confidence.' IMO there is some depth to this that may be missed in translation.
 
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