Loss of salvation???

[studier]

That's not the grammar.

As best as I can tell, you've got the end in mind, and are forumlating the interpretation to suit that.

You have become a partaker - have, already happened - IF you hold your confidence to the end. If you don't, it didn't happen for you.

Clear as can be, yet you argue against it.

Much love!

Well, I argue against your error, and can provide more scholars' references to substantiate what I say about the meanings of the Greek tense and condition you don't understand.

How about you - have you provided anything but your opinion?

 

[HeIsHere]

This is why I stopped making arguments from grammar. They are so arbitrary. Here is my frustration that a lot of thoughtful interpreters feel but rarely articulate: grammatical categories in Greek can start to feel like they’re floating in mid‑air, as though the grammar book is telling you what the text “must” mean, when in reality the grammar book is just describing patterns that interpreters have already decided are significant.

The core issue is that Greek grammatical categories are descriptive conventions, not divinely sanctioned rules, yet they’re often treated as if they carry interpretive authority. Grammarians label patterns they observe in the language, but applying those labels to a specific passage is already an act of interpretation. So when someone argues, “This is a third‑class conditional, therefore it must mean X,” they’re smuggling in two layers of judgment—first that the construction fits the category, and second that the category has a fixed meaning. The result is that grammar can be used to shut down interpretation rather than guide it, giving an illusion of objectivity where there is actually interpretive choice.

Making an argument based on individual "word study" is only useful when examined within the main true thesis of the text.
Individual words are slippery.

 

[PennEd]

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


1. They HEAR (in Greek to hear means to understand and even to accept) and receive the word with joy.
THEY RECEIVE THE WORD.
They have accepted God.
They are born again.


2. BUT
they believe only FOR A WHILE.
THEY BELIEVE....they are born again.


BUT ONLY FOR A WHILE.


3. Then, Jesus said, due to temptation
THEY FALL AWAY.

First off, you altered the Word from YOUR OWN CHOSEN TRANSLATION!! Click on the BLUE of this person's verse folks.

The verse says had NO root.

ROOT, is one of the many Names given our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

These people DID NOT HAVE The Root, Jesus to begin with.
NEVER SAVED

 

[markss]

Meaning what, pray tell - that I'm unable to analyze the language apart from using AI?

That was just some bullet-pointed observations with a little morphology and real syntax instead of your bluffing syntax while discussing morphology, coupled with an offer to provide scholarly references if you'd like to actually learn something.

Honestly, I've been doing this for about 25 years. You'll need to look up timing for AI availability and even availability of online resources for Greek exegesis. I wish I'd had such resources 25 years ago!

You do realize you just issued a white flag via a few fallacious arguments, don't you? Once the ad hominem begins it's basically all over.

It's also interesting to note who's agreeing with your failed arguments.

I was interested in whether or not you used AI to compose your post, as it has the earmarks of such. No assumption, I'm asking the question.

Ad hominem if you want to take it that way I guess.

Regardless . . . this is all repeat now. Take a look at the loaded language you've been using. That tells a story.

Much love!

 

[markss]

Jesus' order is: identity produces response -

I love this, very succinct!!

This is the correct order, and those in error reverse this, as if what we do determines who we are.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

That's not the grammar.

As best as I can tell, you've got the end in mind, and are forumlating the interpretation to suit that.

You have become a partaker - have, already happened - IF you hold your confidence to the end. If you don't, it didn't happen for you.

Clear as can be, yet you argue against it.

Much love!

I'm not a Greek scholar markss

But could you answer this:

Statement:

You have become a member of the club,,,
IF you wear a white shirt till the end of your life.


Question:

Am I a member of the Club?

 

[markss]

Well, I argue against your error, and can provide more scholars' references to substantiate what I say about the meanings of the Greek tense and condition you don't understand.

How about you - have you provided anything but your opinion?

Do you recall me pointing out that the scholars you were quoting were disagreeing with your interpretations? Interesting, no?

Much love!

 

[Genez]

Do you ever question these connections?

How does the brother know when a brother is eating and drinking judgment trending beyond sick and has reached the sin toward death? Is the brother on his death bed in sickness getting carried into the party or something?

If you are being led by the Spirit and find yourself not wanting to pray for someone?
What should that tell you?

And, if you are in your flesh?
A prayer would not be effective either way.

Ever make that connection???

 

[Genez]

Easy to read and understand.

Well then...

Let's cut to the chase.

This thread is about "loss of salvation."

With all your expertise in the Greek?
You should be able to tell us with all certainty.
Can a saved person lose his salvation?

Yes.
No.

Just a yes, or no?

Make it easy to read and understand.

We'll discuss after you give your conclusion.

Thank you...

 

[Toknow]

I love this, very succinct!!

This is the correct order, and those in error reverse this, as if what we do determines who we are.

Much love!

What you do
determines who you are.

If you do not DO
you are no follower of Jesus.


Romans 6:13-16
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


1. We are not under the Law
but under grace.
This does not eliminate the necessity of obeying God.
It CHANGES the METHOD by which we can obey.
LOVE.


2. We PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to obey as slaves.
Sin.....resulting in death.

Obedience....resulting in righteousness.

 

[markss]

First off, you altered the Word from YOUR OWN CHOSEN TRANSLATION!! Click on the BLUE of this person's verse folks.

The verse says had NO root.

ROOT, is one of the many Names given our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

These people DID NOT HAVE The Root, Jesus to begin with.
NEVER SAVED

They've had an emotional experience with no regeneration.

Matthew 13:20-21 KJV
20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Just like Peter exhorts that as we persevere through persecutions and afflictions this is the proof of the genuineness of our faith. He does not say this is what produces our faith. Rather, it shows our faith is real.

Much love!

 

[Genez]

Well, I argue against your error, and can provide more scholars' references to substantiate what I say about the meanings of the Greek tense and condition you don't understand.

How about you - have you provided anything but your opinion?

What is your purpose here?

To build up with sound knowledge?

Or, to poke holes and weaken another?

You hide behind things too much.

 

[Toknow]

Agreed.

They are sheep while they are hearing and following.

Not if they once heard or followed.

@NightTwister gave you a laughing emoji.

Nothing funny about HEARING AND FOLLOWING Jesus.

Let's look at the passage again:



John 10:27
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;


Seems that NightTwister is not a good student of the English language.....

John is saying that we must HEAR and FOLLOW.

Both are in the present tense.

You are 100% correct that John is stating that the action of HEARING and FOLLOWING must be ongoing
and NOT a one time action that took place in the past.

 

[Toknow]

They've had an emotional experience with no regeneration.

Matthew 13:20-21 KJV
20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while:

WHAT dureth for a while markss??

for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Just like Peter exhorts that as we persevere through persecutions and afflictions this is the proof of the genuineness of our faith. He does not say this is what produces our faith. Rather, it shows our faith is real.

How is your faith genuine if you are agreeing that a person must persevere?

HOW do you know YOU will persevere till the end of your life?

YOU DO NOT:

You really do need to learn about tenses.

 

[markss]

I do not agree that this is a good verse to use to show that a Christian could never become lost again.

1 John 2:19 LITV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.

Actually this verse states a rule, if you will, that those who are "of us" remain. So yes, this is a splendid verse to affirm this wonderful truth.

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

You're digging the bottom of the barrel.....

If a person HEARS and FOLLOWS he is a sheep of Jesus.
IF they HEAR and FOLLOW,,,they have eternal life.

If they do not...
no eternal live.

Reread what you wrote above.

It makes no sense.

 

[markss]

You really do need to learn about tenses.

"you" statements do not interest me. I'm not here for your descriptions of me. Just saying.

Much love!

 

[markss]

You're digging the bottom of the barrel.....

I guess it's not just me you choose to describe in the ways you do. Making it personal, why? Have you ever considered that question?

Much love!

 

[Toknow]

1 John 2:19 LITV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.

Actually this verse states a rule, if you will, that those who are "of us" remain. So yes, this is a splendid verse to affirm this wonderful truth.

Much love!

Whatever you say markss.

However,,,THEY WERE NEVER OF US

MEANS

that they were NEVER CHRISTIAN.

There are PLENTY of verses showing that A CHRISTIAN could fall away....
1 John 2 is not required.

Why would I want to use 1 John 2 as a proof text???

I wouldn't.

 

[Toknow]

First off, you altered the Word from YOUR OWN CHOSEN TRANSLATION!! Click on the BLUE of this person's verse folks.

The verse says had NO root.

ROOT, is one of the many Names given our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

These people DID NOT HAVE The Root, Jesus to begin with.
NEVER SAVED

PennEd

I have many versions....
even in other languages.

PICK A VERSION and post it.


If it does not agree with all other versions...
we could throw out our NTs.