Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

What you do
determines who you are.

What you do has been determined by what you think.

Who you are?
Is what you think.

 

[Toknow]

"you" statements do not interest me. I'm not here for your descriptions of me. Just saying.

Much love!

WHAT dureth for a while markss???

Let's see HOW you reject what Jesus taught.

I know...
some questions just are too difficult to answer.

But you could try.


Let's try some different versions to please @PennEd

And,,,,I'll use Matthew 13:20-21 because, apparently, you believe it's somehow different from Luke 8:13 which was what I posted.
No difference.


Matthew 13:20-21 NASB
20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.



CEB
20 As for the seed that was spread on rocky ground, this refers to people who hear the word and immediately receive it joyfully.
21 Because they have no roots, they last for only a little while. When they experience distress or abuse because of the word, they immediately fall away.



KJV
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


NIRV
20 Others received the seed that fell on rocky places. They are those who hear the message and at once receive it with joy.
21 But they have no roots. So they last only a short time. They quickly fall away from the faith when trouble or suffering comes because of the message.



So,,,the questions are:

1. WHAT was received with joy?

2. From WHAT did they fall away?

 

[studier]

This is why I stopped making arguments from grammar. They are so arbitrary. Here is my frustration that a lot of thoughtful interpreters feel but rarely articulate: grammatical categories in Greek can start to feel like they’re floating in mid‑air, as though the grammar book is telling you what the text “must” mean, when in reality the grammar book is just describing patterns that interpreters have already decided are significant.

The core issue is that Greek grammatical categories are descriptive conventions, not divinely sanctioned rules, yet they’re often treated as if they carry interpretive authority. Grammarians label patterns they observe in the language, but applying those labels to a specific passage is already an act of interpretation. So when someone argues, “This is a third‑class conditional, therefore it must mean X,” they’re smuggling in two layers of judgment—first that the construction fits the category, and second that the category has a fixed meaning. The result is that grammar can be used to shut down interpretation rather than guide it, giving an illusion of objectivity where there is actually interpretive choice.

Honestly, Roger, as soon as I see the word "arbitrary" as it looks like you're using it, I lose interest in continuing. The gist seems to be an antinomian approach to language that has established rules apart from which every interpretation is self-deemed correct as can be seen continuously in these discussions.

We're dealing with a very precise language with thousands of years of scholarship having analyzed it. It is far from being arbitrary. It does have specific meaning and structure.

Few here are trained in really analyzing it but we all nevertheless have opinions, no matter how long we've been reading our Bibles.

We both know that all is not resolved through knowing how to analyze the language, but, when it gets to a certain depth, at least we can know why and how men have been and are at disagreements in various points.

When we've gone as far as we can go, we rest or we continue to seek Him to take us further. Although I've had to go back to unwind some doctrines I was taught, in the studies of the established rules of grammar, it's been pretty much just forward progress.

 

[Toknow]

What you do has been determined by what you think.

Who you are?
Is what you think.

We're not discussing philosophy Gene.
We're discussing theology.


Here is what Jesus said:


John 13:35
35 If you love one another, everyone will know you are my disciples."

We love one another
It gives a signal


What you DO
determines WHO YOU ARE

 

[mailmandan]

They've had an emotional experience with no regeneration.

Matthew 13:20-21 KJV
20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Just like Peter exhorts that as we persevere through persecutions and afflictions this is the proof of the genuineness of our faith. He does not say this is what produces our faith. Rather, it shows our faith is real.

Much love!

Amen! A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't so there is no loss of salvation here. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

 

[studier]

I was interested in whether or not you used AI to compose your post, as it has the earmarks of such. No assumption, I'm asking the question.

Ad hominem if you want to take it that way I guess.

Regardless . . . this is all repeat now. Take a look at the loaded language you've been using. That tells a story.

Much love!

Read as rhetorical.
Simple answer is I think and write in outline, and redeemed 3 years in training to analyze and outline the Text at the word and clause level making structural diagrams of the Greek Text.
If by loaded you mean analytical based upon rules of grammar according to scholarship, no need to review it - I know it.
What tells a story is your willingness to set aside established scholarship and stick to your opinions at all costs in what looks like a desire to support a specific theology.

 

[Genez]

We're not discussing philosophy Gene.
We're discussing theology.

That was not philosophy...

I said this...

​

What you do has been determined by what you think.​

​

Who you are?​

Is what you think. ​

The Bible says it also.

Proverbs 23:7a. (from various translations)

​

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.​

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:​

For as he thinketh in his soul, so is he.​

For as he thinks within himself, so he is.​

The real you is determined by what you think.
What you do simply reveals what has been determined.
What you do does not determine who you are.
The real you is determined by what you think.

Proverbs 23:7a.

 

[studier]

Do you ever question these connections?

How does the brother know when a brother is eating and drinking judgment trending beyond sick and has reached the sin toward death? Is the brother on his death bed in sickness getting carried into the party or something?

Ever wonder if it was a different sin than mistreating the eucharist - a more easily recognizable sin? Something recognizable they're being instructed not to make request for?

Ever consider that John may have discussed such sin in his letter?

If you are being led by the Spirit and find yourself not wanting to pray for someone?
What should that tell you?

And, if you are in your flesh?
A prayer would not be effective either way.

Ever make that connection???

When you're connecting 1John5:16 to 1Cor11:30:

NKJ 1John5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Is this speaking about being led by the Spirit or is it speaking of actually seeing a brother sinning a sin and knowing it does not lead to death?

Then, if it involves seeing and knowing what to pray for, is there any seeing and knowing re: the sin leading to death?

 

[studier]

Do you recall me pointing out that the scholars you were quoting were disagreeing with your interpretations? Interesting, no?

Much love!

I recall telling you that you were wrong about this and several things by now.

 

[Toknow]

That was not philosophy...

I said this...

​

What you do has been determined by what you think.​

​

Who you are?​

Is what you think. ​

The Bible says it also.

Proverbs 23:7a. (from various translations)

​

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.​

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:​

For as he thinketh in his soul, so is he.​

For as he thinks within himself, so he is.​

The real you is determined by what you think.
What you do simply reveals what has been determined.
What you do does not determine who you are.
The real you is determined by what you think.

Proverbs 23:7a.

I think I'm the mayor of my town.

Am I the mayor of my town?

 

[studier]

Well then...

Let's cut to the chase.

This thread is about "loss of salvation."

With all your expertise in the Greek?
You should be able to tell us with all certainty.
Can a saved person lose his salvation?

Yes.
No.

Just a yes, or no?

Make it easy to read and understand.

We'll discuss after you give your conclusion.

Thank you...

See here.

Does this help in our discussion about my being able to recognize Thieme doctrine when you use it?

 

[Mem]

I think I'm the mayor of my town.

Am I the mayor of my town?

Are you fairly confident that you are the mayor of your town?

 

[Toknow]

@markss

I've asked you two questions,,,easy questions....

You've spoken about this with two other members in posts 9311 and 9325.

How about coming up with a reply to my questions in post no. 9306??

Or do you only speak with those that agree with you?


The jproblem might be that the reply to those two questions would be incriminating and prove that your rendering of Matthew 13:20-21
or Luke 8:13
is not correct.



@PennEd might want to give it a try too.

With ANY version of the NT.

 

[studier]

What is your purpose here?

To build up with sound knowledge?

Or, to poke holes and weaken another?

You hide behind things too much.

You're projecting with your conclusion.

Aren't we all - including you - 'poking holes' in what we see as error.

 

[Toknow]

Are you pretty confident that you are the mayor of your town?

Who can know?

Genez said that I am what I think.

I think I'm the mayor of my town.

You mean THINKING it is not sufficient to make it a reality?

 

[markss]

Let's see HOW you reject what Jesus taught.

Why would I be interested in speaking with you when this is how you speak? I assure you I am not.

Much love!

 

[Mem]

You're projecting with your conclusion.

Aren't we all - including you - 'poking holes' in what we see as error.

I've come to the conclusion that your intent is to remove any shadow of doubt and so have adopted the approach to the subject in such position as the devil's advocate. But, then again, I might be projecting.

 

[Mem]

Who can know?

Genez said that I am what I think.

I think I'm the mayor of my town.

You mean THINKING it is not sufficient to make it a reality?

Okay there has to be some sort of link to what you think and the reality, then. You might say, some sort of root? @studier reminded me of a study in confidence, and it provided me with a sort of Eureka! moment and I see I'll be running with it. Like the woman at the well, "Come! And see! ..."

 

[Toknow]

Why would I be interested in speaking with you when this is how you speak? I assure you I am not.

Much love!

Sensitive aren't we?

WHAT did I post that so offended you?
Post it.

Digging the bottom of the barrel maybe?
You feel that you need to protect MMD?
He's a grown adult markss and does not require your help.

However, yes,,,that post of his DID NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.

I've posted why you will not reply.

Because the reply will incriminate you.

There is no reply because any reply will prove you WRONG.

yes sir.
Wrong.

 

[Toknow]

Okay there has to be some sort of link to what you think and the reality, then. You might say, some sort of root?

I could ask Bill.
He might know.
Craig is good at this stuff.

What I know is that what I think is NOT what I am.

Do YOU believe that we are what we think?


Root?
Are you projecting onto Matthew 13 and Luke 8?