Loss of salvation???

[Qt]

There is no contradiction and AT Robertson was not implying sinless perfection and he specified in 1 John 3:6 does not keep on sinning and lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin, the habit of sin.

Here is an excerpt from the actual citation. "Sinneth not (ουχ αμαρτανε). Linear present (linear μενων, keeps on abiding) active indicative of αμαρτανω, "does not keep on sinning." For μενω (abide) see 1John 2:6; John 15:4-10."

μενω= remains

SINNETH NOT, DOES NOT KEEP ON ABIDING in sin. Incidentally Does not keep on sinning would cover even occasionally.

Lets look as some of the other examples of verbs that that are like μενω and are Present/active/ indicative/ participle.

Out of the 741 times it is used that I could find. Most of the instances that one will see are instances of a state action one is in presently at a given time.

Like in Matt 1:19 where Joseph was not WILLING to to expose Mary publicly. Here is the verse. "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily."

Or like Matthew SAYING what Jesus said in the following from Matt 25:45. It was his state of action at a present time. He said, "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

Or Jesus SLEEPING in Mark 4:38. Or the one who betrays Jesus being described as one eating with Him during the last supper in Mark 14:18.

These actions are in the present continuous tense. This tense is used to indicate actions that are currently taking place or ongoing.

With that said it is safe to say the actions above are not on going because they are describing an action that was being spoken in the present tense but has stopped. NOT STOPPED AND RESTARTED AND STOPPED AND RESTARTED AGAIN. STOPPED, as in the action was ongoing at that present time in history and is no more.

1John 3:6 is not an action that is being described in the present but has stopped. The not Abiding in sin is being stated as an action that is ongoing state of being.

Let us look at some other examples.

In John 3:16 Jesus says that the one who BELIEVES in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. THIS STATE OF ACTION OF BELIEVING IS SOMETHING THAT IS ONGOING. Not something that is being described in the present tense and has stopped. But on going state of believing.

And in John 12:44 where Jesus says, he that BELIEVETH into me believeth not into me but into Him that sent me. And vers 45 is another example. Where He says, he that SEETH me seeth Him that sent me.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

And in where Jesus says, he that RECEIVETH whomsoever I send, receiveth Him who sent me. This ongoing also.

John 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

And here is a couple more from the very chapter in which we speak. This should solidify what is being shared with you.

There it says 1John 3:3 he that HAS this hope purifieth himself even as He, Jesus is pure. HAS, as in ongoing HOPE.

And in verse 3:4 where it says He that COMMITTETH sin transgresseth also the Law.

And in verse 3:7 where it says, he DOETH righteousness is righteous even as He, Jesus is righteous after saying he that ABIDETH IN Him sinneth not. Was Jesus sinning ocassionally?

1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I would of loved to have sit with Robertson. Maybe I will be blessed and Wallace will give me his ear here in the future.

 

[TrustandObey]

If by "metaphysical" you mean spiritual or inward, then yes — it was that kind of experience. A test of faith isn’t just an inward feeling or spiritual moment. It’s a real-life situation that God tailors to the individual. The outward circumstances and the inward struggle work together. The test fits the person — it’s designed to reveal and refine their particular faith.

When someone hears “test of faith,” they often imagine:

• an internal struggle
• doubt
• fear
• spiritual wrestling

Those are real, but they’re only half the picture.

Biblically, a test of faith is always enacted through concrete circumstances — events, pressures, losses, hardships, decisions, relationships, timing, and providentially arranged situations.

It’s not merely psychological. It’s not merely metaphysical. It’s situational.

Think of how Scripture presents it:

• Abraham’s test was not Job’s.
• Job’s test was not Peter’s.
• Peter’s test was not Paul’s.
• Paul’s test was not the Thessalonians’.

Each test fits:

• the person’s calling
• their weaknesses
• their strengths
• their stage of life
• their temperament
• their vulnerabilities
• their future purpose

This is why James says the testing of faith produces endurance — not generically, but in you.

Your self-assumption is beyond the pale.

So you know the tests that God has set before you and have passed them?



So you insist that God has labeled you "a good and faithful servant". Such hubris.

Since you don't seem to understand the meaning of metaphysical, I will ask it as such.

Your knowledge that you passed the tests and God sees you as a good and faithful servant, did God let you know this in a tangible way or a non-tangible way?

I cannot make the question any simpler.

I suspect you just don't want to answer the question.

 

[FlyingDove]

You have absolutely no reason to inject your name into a pronoun without it being written to you personally.

This should go without saying. This is how language works.

BTW, the Mormons also claim to know who the "other sheep" are in John 10:16. Would you like to guest who they are?

Your rule would mean no Christian today can claim any biblical promise unless their personal name appears in the verse. That's not how language works.

When Jesus says ""My sheep... I give them eternal life... they shall never perish,"" He is speaking of every individual who belongs to Him. Pronouns apply to persons within the category, not to a faceless abstraction. If ""sheep"" is a category, then every person in that category receives the promise & appealing to Mormon misuse of John 10:16 doesn't change the grammar of John 10:27–28.

 

[Genez]

So, the sin unto death is refusing to get with sound doctrine?

Is it not?

 

[Roger316]

Your self-assumption is beyond the pale.

So you know the tests that God has set before you and have passed them?

View attachment 286743

So you insist that God has labeled you "a good and faithful servant". Such hubris.

Since you don't seem to understand the meaning of metaphysical, I will ask it as such.

Your knowledge that you passed the tests and God sees you as a good and faithful servant, did God let you know this in a tangible way or a non-tangible way?

I cannot make the question any simpler.

I suspect you just don't want to answer the question.

I simply don't understand your questions. They don't seem to follow what I already said. Perhaps I didn't tell you that three different Apostles each make the same profound point. I will focus on Romans 5:1-5.

. . . and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Paul has used the term “exult,” which refers to triumphant jubilation grounded in a confident expectation of glory. He will argue that this confidence is not wishful thinking or emotional optimism. It is built on solid evidence that God is personally and intimately involved in the lives of those who are "in Christ." And that evidence unfolds in a chain of divine actions that cannot be broken:

Several things are true about the one whom God has chosen to save:

• God has justified them.
• God has given them peace with Himself.
• God has placed them in a standing of grace.
• God gives them confidence in their hope.

Romans 5:3
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations . . .

We feel the tension. On the surface, “we exult in our tribulations” sounds almost upside‑down — like Paul is asking believers to celebrate pain. But that’s not what he’s doing. Paul is being very precise, and once you see his logic, the whole thing snaps into place.

He never glorifies pain for its own sake. Tribulations are real, painful, and often bewildering. Paul himself groans, weeps, and pleads with God to remove suffering. So why “exult”? Because the meaning of suffering has changed for those who are in Christ.

Romans 5:4
knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

Our text speaks about "proven character" but that translation doesn't capture the intended meaning.
Paul is not talking about moral résumé‑building or the polishing of virtues in the abstract. His word is far more dynamic, experiential, and God‑centered.

The term Paul uses in Romans 5:4 is δοκιμή, which does not primarily mean “character traits” or “virtue.” It means:

• the quality of having been tested and found genuine,
• the state of something that has passed through trial and emerged authentic,
• the proven-ness of faith,
• the evidence that something is real because it has endured pressure.

It’s not about “character” in the modern psychological sense. It’s about authenticity revealed through testing. The point is not that suffering makes you a better person. The point is that suffering reveals that God’s work in you is real.

Romans 5:5
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Some might ask, "Are you a prophet Paul?" How do you know if my faith might fail at some point in the future?" Hope does not disappoint because my faith has been tested and found to be genuine and resilient, and God sustains me.

This is why a test of faith leads to hope. Hope grows when you see that your faith didn’t collapse under pressure — not because you are strong, but because God is sustaining you.

 

[Genez]

I simply don't understand your questions. They don't seem to follow what I already said.

Yup... that's how she distracts you and tries to drag you off the solid path you keep seeking.

 

[Roger316]

Yup... that's how she distracts you and tries to drag you off the solid path you keep seeking.

That is why I try to bring the discussion around to the subject matter at hand.

 

[Lamar]

I simply don't understand your questions. They don't seem to follow what I already said. Perhaps I didn't tell you that three different Apostles each make the same profound point. I will focus on Romans 5:1-5.

. . . and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Paul has used the term “exult,” which refers to triumphant jubilation grounded in a confident expectation of glory. He will argue that this confidence is not wishful thinking or emotional optimism. It is built on solid evidence that God is personally and intimately involved in the lives of those who are "in Christ." And that evidence unfolds in a chain of divine actions that cannot be broken:

Several things are true about the one whom God has chosen to save:

• God has justified them.
• God has given them peace with Himself.
• God has placed them in a standing of grace.
• God gives them confidence in their hope.

Romans 5:3
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations . . .

We feel the tension. On the surface, “we exult in our tribulations” sounds almost upside‑down — like Paul is asking believers to celebrate pain. But that’s not what he’s doing. Paul is being very precise, and once you see his logic, the whole thing snaps into place.

He never glorifies pain for its own sake. Tribulations are real, painful, and often bewildering. Paul himself groans, weeps, and pleads with God to remove suffering. So why “exult”? Because the meaning of suffering has changed for those who are in Christ.

Romans 5:4
knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

Our text speaks about "proven character" but that translation doesn't capture the intended meaning.
Paul is not talking about moral résumé‑building or the polishing of virtues in the abstract. His word is far more dynamic, experiential, and God‑centered.

The term Paul uses in Romans 5:4 is δοκιμή, which does not primarily mean “character traits” or “virtue.” It means:

• the quality of having been tested and found genuine,
• the state of something that has passed through trial and emerged authentic,
• the proven-ness of faith,
• the evidence that something is real because it has endured pressure.

It’s not about “character” in the modern psychological sense. It’s about authenticity revealed through testing. The point is not that suffering makes you a better person. The point is that suffering reveals that God’s work in you is real.

Romans 5:5
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Some might ask, "Are you a prophet Paul?" How do you know if my faith might fail at some point in the future?" Hope does not disappoint because my faith has been tested and found to be genuine and resilient, and God sustains me.

This is why a test of faith leads to hope. Hope grows when you see that your faith didn’t collapse under pressure — not because you are strong, but because God is sustaining you.

His question is rather simple.

You claim that Jesus has already called you His "good and faithful servant" and you know your fate.

How do you know the above claim is correct?

Injecting yourself in someone else's pronouns is no more proof then if any Tom, Dick or Harry did the same.

Claims are not proof.

 

[Genez]

That is why I try to bring the discussion around to the subject matter at hand.

It won't do any good. She will then act like she does not understand and distort what you offer as well.
That has been the trend I have witnessed to when dealing with her.

There is a bit of a theological snob in her...
Not the first time I have seen this sort of thing with some others.
"Can't be bothered." (after you painted her into a corner)

 

[Roger316]

It won't do any good. She will then act like she does not understand and distort what you offer as well.
That has been the trend I have witnessed to when dealing with her.

There is a bit of a theological snob in her...
Not the first time I have seen this sort of thing with some others.
"Can't be bothered." (after you painted her into a corner)

The thing is, I am 71 years old, and I am familiar with all the arguments for and against. I hope we can return to a discussion of the scriptures soon.

 

[Roger316]

His question is rather simple.

You claim that Jesus has already called you His "good and faithful servant" and you know your fate.

I never made that claim. I never claimed that Jesus has already called me his good and faithful servant. Don't always believe what other people say about someone else.

How do you know the above claim is correct?

Injecting yourself in someone else's pronouns is no more proof then if any Tom, Dick or Harry did the same.

Claims are not proof.

My arguments are always based in the scriptures and you seem to have read my latest post summarizing Paul's argument in Romans 5. Do you have any questions or objections about my latest post.

 

[Genez]

His question is rather simple.

You claim that Jesus has already called you His "good and faithful servant" and you know your fate.

Many are called. They are saved!
But, only a few will choose to mature as to become the chosen ones to reign with him on his throne!

Many are saved. (called)

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​

those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30​

Only a few of the called/saved are willing to amount to glorifying Christ, which will require they suffer when need be.

Many are called?
Many are saved!

But, out of the many?

To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21

Only a few will be chosen to serve and reign by His side!

That is why... Many people are saved!
But, only a few will glorify Christ in how they chose to think with God's Word and live.


So many things we are told to believe are totally screwed up. Why?

2 Timothy 4:3​

​

For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them ​

a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

​

A 'great number' of teachers? The broad and wide path that leads to destruction!
Meaning? Take your pick! Choose whatever pleases you according to your own desired way of seeing things!

"Self winners" = losers.

 

[Genez]

The thing is, I am 71 years old, and I am familiar with all the arguments for and against. I hope we can return to a discussion of the scriptures soon.

I'm 77.

Some will not return to discuss.
They only wish to weigh down your feet in your walk of faith, and drag you to a stand still.

They do not even know why they do what they do.
It's instinctive, and experienced as an emotional reaction.
They never question it.
For pawns only go where they are "moved" to.

 

[Roger316]

I'm 77.

Some will not return to discuss.
They only wish to weigh down your feet in your walk of faith, and drag you to a stand still.

They do not even know why they do what they do.
It's instinctive, and experienced as an emotional reaction.
They never question it.
For pawns only go where they are "moved" to.

Congrats on your age. I understand the desire to defend the faith, and I applaud those who do it well.

 

[Genez]

Congrats on your age. I understand the desire to defend the faith, and I applaud those who do it well.

We are not to try to defend always....

​

For everything there is a season,​

a right time for every intention under heaven —​

a time to be born and a time to die,​

a time to plant and a time to uproot,​

a time to kill and a time to heal,​

a time to tear down and a time to build,​

a time to weep and a time to laugh,​

a time to mourn and a time to dance,​

a time to throw stones and a time to gather stones,​

a time to embrace and a time to refrain,​

a time to search and a time to give up,​

a time to keep and a time to discard,​

a time to tear and a time to sew,​

a time to keep silent and a time to speak,​

a time to love and a time to hate,​

a time for war and a time for peace.​

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8​

 

[studier]

Is it not?

In part leading up to the sin pros death, but you and I would part ways in what that sin can end up being per 1John and likely Hebrews (assuming the lazy with doctrine part).

 

[Genez]

In part leading up to the sin pros death, but you and I would part ways in what that sin can end up being per 1John and likely Hebrews (assuming the lazy with doctrine part).

Was that elliptical?

To be rejecting sound doctrine means one rejects 1 John 1:9.....
So why bring that in?

Come on now. Take a break.

 

[Qt]

I'm 77.

Some will not return to discuss.
They only wish to weigh down your feet in your walk of faith, and drag you to a stand still.

They do not even know why they do what they do.
It's instinctive, and experienced as an emotional reaction.
They never question it.
For pawns only go where they are "moved" to.

No

 

[studier]

Was that elliptical?

To be rejecting sound doctrine means one rejects 1 John 1:9.....
So why bring that in?

Come on now. Take a break.

Drop the ending and we might actually have a discussion.

Correct. If one starts rejecting things like 1John1:9 - which BTW many are not being taught in the first place - then what else might they reject?

In one respect John is dealing with false teaching about Jesus and about sin. When he closes out with guarding self from idols just after he talks about the sin pros death and praying for one another, this was far from being some game being played.

A little recent experience for you. I attended a local weekly meeting of Christian men a few times. It's been attracting nearly 100 men/week. Mostly no teaching going on. A young guy ended up asking if we could get together. He's a fairly recent convert struggling with old friends pulling him back into a sinful lifestyle. He had recently completed a year long program of men getting together to read and discuss the Bible from cover to cover. He was surprised to be asked to lead the next annual group. In our get-together he confided he was really struggling, so I checked some foundation. Seems to know and believe the basics of the Gospel, but not as I would teach them and seemed edgy about being asked too many meaningful questions. Had no clue what 1John1:9 was about - zero. He's leading a reading group and it seems this men's group has prompted him into service now with some likely looking to him for some guidance.

It's not good out there, Genez. You know it and I know it. I think we part when it comes to just how dangerous it is for believers and what the sin pros death can be.

 

[Qt]

Was that elliptical?

To be rejecting sound doctrine means one rejects 1 John 1:9.....
So why bring that in?

Come on now. Take a break.

Your understanding is what is rejected probably. 1 Jo 1:9 stands true. Tell Me something, why can’t the majority here just focus on posting answers relevant to what people share and stop speaking about one another?