Loss of salvation???

[studier]

I was hacken on ya a bit.

Really though, do a thorough study on John 5:24. It is no nonsense, clear and even a child could understand the translation and clear implications of the verse.......milk. We cannot let the milk sour and then go into the meat.

Like the fur-ball that doesn't get hacked easily. I've been referred to in worse ways

John5:24

• So it's not just me pointing out these present tenses: YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed (metabainō) out of the death to the life.
• 'has passed' is perfect tense which I've gone through enough - it only speaks up to the current state and not into the future.
• Jesus can just as easily be saying while you're doing these things, this is your status.
• Then, chasing 'metabainō' around John also says this: YLT 1 John 3:14 we -- we have known (perfect tense - based upon something in the past we know now) that we have passed (metabainō - perfect tense we passed in the past and are current passed) out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.

These things are not as cut and dry as we may want them to be.

• Jesus was speaking of a current state re: those who were hearing and believing.
• John is later applying a cause to knowing we've passed from death to life - are we loving the brothers?
  • If not, then John's saying we're still in death.

So, all needs to be explained and 1John proceeds into the sin unto death and a command to guard yourselves from the idols as @Genez and I were discussing.

Just hacken back...

 

[Genez]

'Right pastor' is mostly an RBT doctrine, so at some point along the path, rethinking it is not unbiblical. It sounds like you've done that to some degree as I understand you.

I would like to say it like this.

My Jewish father disowned me after learning I had become a Christian.
He showed disdain for what he had seen of typical pastors.

Then … after a few years.

It happened.


After my dad's death my mother sadly told me that Robert Thieme was a pastor my dad truly respected.
I later discovered in his office, that he had made copies onto his reel to reel, of lessons that my niece and myself had sent him.

Before he died. And, after listening to a message I had just sent him.
My mom and dad called me.
Over the phone he told me he loved me.

Then about a year later...
My dad died.

My mom's friends noticed something about my mom and told her so.
They asked her how she was taking it so well.

What she told them was that my dad had sat her down and had preparing her in the event of his death.
His words were taken from a message that RBT taught that I had sent my dad.
What my dad learned and told my mom truly helped her in keeping stable and organized.
It was the same message caused my dad to have a change of heart.
The theme of the message was .... "When you die, you must do your own dying, and you will die alone, no matter how many people are around you." And, if you matured in Christ? It will be your most glorious experience before leaving this world.

My dad was emotionally moved when he called to tell me he loved me.

That is one reason I am very happy to have been given the grace to find my right pastor.


grace and peace ..........

 

[Kroogz]

They can't focus because they have no idea how many answers God has provided His Church.
Which answers, will not come from simply "sharing."
But, by means of praying and finding a qualified teacher, which are few and far in-between.

When all we know are weak and deficient teaching?
We learn to not expect very much, and never know why we are so frustrated and dulled inside.
To break up the boredom some resort to dogma wars.

Few find it.
Many think that what they got is all there is.

This hits home for me. I spent years going to church with the same "sermon" every Sunday. Being good and nice, cleaning up my life and putting on the fake smile. I asked God over and over and over,"This is it?" I was going to walk away and God sent me a teacher. On the radio in the truck, 2000 miles away from home.......It was almost as exciting as the day I was saved.

 

[Genez]

Like the fur-ball that doesn't get hacked easily. I've been referred to in worse ways

John5:24

• So it's not just me pointing out these present tenses: YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed (metabainō) out of the death to the life.
• 'has passed' is perfect tense which I've gone through enough - it only speaks up to the current state and not into the future.
• Jesus can just as easily be saying while you're doing these things, this is your status.
• Then, chasing 'metabainō' around John also says this: YLT 1 John 3:14 we -- we have known (perfect tense - based upon something in the past we know now) that we have passed (metabainō - perfect tense we passed in the past and are current passed) out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.

These things are not as cut and dry as we may want them to be.

• Jesus was speaking of a current state re: those who were hearing and believing.
• John is later applying a cause to knowing we've passed from death to life - are we loving the brothers?
  • If not, then John's saying we're still in death.

So, all needs to be explained and 1John proceeds into the sin unto death and a command to guard yourselves from the idols as @Genez and I were discussing.

Just hacken back...

In John 5:24, the phrase "has passed" (Greek: metabebēken) is in the perfect tense, signifying an action completed in the past with ongoing results. It indicates an instantaneous, permanent transition from spiritual death to life that occurs the moment one believes, providing a present possession of eternal life.


That is why I am having a hard time with you...

 

[Kroogz]

Like the fur-ball that doesn't get hacked easily. I've been referred to in worse ways

John5:24

• So it's not just me pointing out these present tenses: YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed (metabainō) out of the death to the life.
• 'has passed' is perfect tense which I've gone through enough - it only speaks up to the current state and not into the future.
• Jesus can just as easily be saying while you're doing these things, this is your status.
• Then, chasing 'metabainō' around John also says this: YLT 1 John 3:14 we -- we have known (perfect tense - based upon something in the past we know now) that we have passed (metabainō - perfect tense we passed in the past and are current passed) out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.

These things are not as cut and dry as we may want them to be.

• Jesus was speaking of a current state re: those who were hearing and believing.
• John is later applying a cause to knowing we've passed from death to life - are we loving the brothers?
  • If not, then John's saying we're still in death.

So, all needs to be explained and 1John proceeds into the sin unto death and a command to guard yourselves from the idols as @Genez and I were discussing.

Just hacken back...

So what you have been pointing out is that there is nothing distinct and certain about Christianity.

As long as I "presently" do well at my Job, I will keep my Job. Tomorrow is a new day though.

Christianity is not distinct in its nature, it operates as the world operates. Do Good and you might succeed.

 

[Roger316]

Ok, we may be "getting somewhere", so, an example and two tough questions?:

"For By Grace Through faith Are ye Saved Through faith; and That not of​

yourselves: It Is The Gift Of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."​

(Ephesians 2:8-9 AV) ​

​

1) What does this "text say"?

2) What does this "text mean"?

3) If it doesn't mean what it says, a six year old my rightly ask: "If God Did Not Mean

What He Said, Then Why Didn't I He Say 'What He Meant'", Correct?​

​

---------------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

If I may answer, the immediate context informs the meaning of the text, Paul begins his letter with a benediction, blessing God for all the "spiritual blessings" he has given to us. In chapter one, he asserts that after his readers believed the gospel message, God granted them the spiritual blessing of "the adoption as sons", which was guaranteed and sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest on their inheritance.

Then, in chapter 2, Paul describes another spiritual blessing: being transformed from a person who was dead in sins and alive in Christ. One aspect and feature of this blessing is being given faith. Salvation is "by Grace" --- the agent: "through faith" the instrument or means by which God saves a person.

 

[Kroogz]

In John 5:24, the phrase "has passed" (Greek: metabebēken) is in the perfect tense, signifying an action completed in the past with ongoing results. It indicates an instantaneous, permanent transition from spiritual death to life that occurs the moment one believes, providing a present possession of eternal life.


That is why I am having a hard time with you...

Not to mention the double negative of "shall not come into judgement."

Will not, no not EVER come into judgement. It's an absolute.

 

[studier]

I would like to say it like this.

My Jewish father disowned me after learning I had become a Christian.
He showed disdain for what he had seen of typical pastors.

Then … after a few years.

It happened.


After my dad's death my mother sadly told me that Robert Thieme was a pastor my dad truly respected.
I later discovered in his office, that he had made copies onto his reel to reel, of lessons that my niece and myself had sent him.

Before he died. And, after listening to a message I had just sent him.
My mom and dad called me.
Over the phone he told me he loved me.

Then about a year later...
My dad died.

My mom's friends noticed something about my mom and told her so.
They asked her how she was taking it so well.

What she told them was that my dad had sat her down and had preparing her in the event of his death.
His words were taken from a message that RBT taught that I had sent my dad.
What my dad learned and told my mom truly helped her in keeping stable and organized.
It was the same message caused my dad to have a change of heart.
The theme of the message was .... "When you die, you must do your own dying, and you will die alone, no matter how many people are around you." And, if you matured in Christ? It will be your most glorious experience before leaving this world.

My dad was emotionally moved when he called to tell me he loved me.

That is one reason I am very happy to have been given the grace to find my right pastor.


grace and peace ..........

Great memory. Thanks for sharing it! I can see how this would affect you. It affects me reading it.

I always liked his stories like the contacts he would get out of the blue like one where a guy had found one of his tapes in the trunk of a junked car or something and had contacted him to thank him for leading him to Christ.

Just because we're debating the accuracy of some of his teachings and overall the systematic theology he held, please never think I hold disrespect for him. I had quite a few times I stuck up for him in some places and situations with men I never thought I'd have had to do such a thing with.

Maybe this'll make you smile: When I met him the first time, I was attending one of his teaching sessions in CA he would travel to periodically. A full auditorium and we had a few minutes before we got started so I went up to introduce myself and to thank him for his teaching. The podium was one of those portable ones and set in an odd position next to edge of the stage at the last step and was potentially unstable. I sized it up and had no intention to disrupt it but put my arm on it lightly as I reached the top and he kind of freaked, grabbed ahold of the podium and yelled at me with his Col. voice you've heard a thousand times. It kind of freaked me out in response. We're both lucky it didn't topple and that he didn't fall out of his high stool! Anyway I said what I had to say and he graciously semi-recovered. Walking back to my seat I thought I'd just been 'Thiemed' and in a way it was kind of perfect. When I sat again, I smiled.

 

[Kroogz]

In John 5:24, the phrase "has passed" (Greek: metabebēken) is in the perfect tense, signifying an action completed in the past with ongoing results. It indicates an instantaneous, permanent transition from spiritual death to life that occurs the moment one believes, providing a present possession of eternal life.


That is why I am having a hard time with you...

The Scholars weasel out of it with word salads.....The perfect tense AMPLIFIES the past completed action.

No one in the bible could call others "brothers and sisters" if the past action wasn't COMPLETE.

 

[Genez]

The Scholars weasel out of it with word salads.....The perfect tense AMPLIFIES the past completed action.

No one in the bible could call others "brothers and sisters" if the past action wasn't COMPLETE.

I am always leery of exegetes who lack that sense of peaceful inner resolve in their expression.
A true exegetical teacher would have the Holy Spirit giving him a back bone of iron.
When I sense cracking wood?
I keep my distance.
Friendly, but claiming my space.

 

[studier]

In John 5:24, the phrase "has passed" (Greek: metabebēken) is in the perfect tense, signifying an action completed in the past with ongoing results. It indicates an instantaneous, permanent transition from spiritual death to life that occurs the moment one believes, providing a present possession of eternal life.


That is why I am having a hard time with you...

What you're having a hard time with is that the perfect tense speaks of a current state at the time of the writing from the perspective of the speaker/writer based upon a past action, but current scholarship says it does not speak of ongoing after that.

This is the the phrase that is messing us up "an action completed in the past with ongoing results" - the ongoing results are from the past action up until the point under discussion, but not past that pursuant to the verb itself.

To show this on a chart if I can:

Past----------------Present------------Future
X-------------------------X

Nothing is stated about the future in the verb itself. Some describe it as a snapshot of a current state.

I will tell you that I have articles on the ongoing research, one in 2022 as I recall, that require for me an awful lot of focus to keep up with. As best I can tell, though, and from any summary I look at, the above is not changed. It seems more of a discussion as to where the emphasis lies.

 

[Kroogz]

What you're having a hard time with is that the perfect tense speaks of a current state at the time of the writing from the perspective of the speaker/writer based upon a past action,

And this is what you reject. The plain and simple meaning.

The speaker/writer could not possibly state the current(present) state if the past action was not a COMPLETED action.

There is no "present" state if the past action was not complete and total.

 

[Genez]

What you're having a hard time with is that the perfect tense speaks of a current state at the time of the writing from the perspective of the speaker/writer based upon a past action, but current scholarship says it does not speak of ongoing after that.

This is the the phrase that is messing us up "an action completed in the past with ongoing results" - the ongoing results are from the past action up until the point under discussion, but not past that pursuant to the verb itself.

To show this on a chart if I can:

Past----------------Present------------Future
X-------------------------X

Nothing is stated about the future in the verb itself. Some describe it as a snapshot of a current state.

I will tell you that I have articles on the ongoing research, one in 2022 as I recall, that require for me an awful lot of focus to keep up with. As best I can tell, though, and from any summary I look at, the above is not changed. It seems more of a discussion as to where the emphasis lies.

What did Jesus mean when he shouted out "Tetelestai?" It is Finished!

Tetelestai (τετέλεσται) is a Greek word used in John 19:30, in the perfect passive indicative tense, derived from the verb teleo. It literally means "it has been and is finished," signifying an action completed in the past with results that continue in the present and future—often translated as "paid in full" or "it is accomplished".

Perfect Tense Definition: This tense combines a completed action with ongoing, permanent results. It means the work was finished in the past, and it remains finished forever.

You keep trying to buck the tiger with pastors I have heard who taught in the Greek.

 

[studier]

So what you have been pointing out is that there is nothing distinct and certain about Christianity.

As long as I "presently" do well at my Job, I will keep my Job. Tomorrow is a new day though.

Christianity is not distinct in its nature, it operates as the world operates. Do Good and you might succeed.

I don't really think that either of us thinks there is nothing distinct & certain about our Lord God.

Are you of those who thinks you shouldn't have to do your job to keep your job? A lot of this going around these days. I grew up differently not only secularly, but especially in our Faith:

NKJ Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.​

• Based upon the lexical resources we have and the actual wording I'd translate this as in elaborated form as: I have requisite personal resources to accomplish all things in the one who strengthens me.
• IOW, I know where my resources and abilities come from for everything He wills me to do.

How about do good and you will succeed because He's the only one who can assure you of this and define and provide what ultimate success truly is? Aren't you sure there are eternal rewards promised to us - actually there are wages and shares in His eternal Kingdom. Seems like this is worth some effort.

 

[studier]

Not to mention the double negative of "shall not come into judgement."

Will not, no not EVER come into judgement. It's an absolute.

We should stick with one verse at a time.

There's no absolute negative in John5:24.

Wouldn't you want to see where security actually is rather than being wrong about where it isn't?

 

[studier]

The Scholars weasel out of it with word salads.....The perfect tense AMPLIFIES the past completed action.

No one in the bible could call others "brothers and sisters" if the past action wasn't COMPLETE.

Some of those "Scholars" are most certainly not weaseling out of anything - they're dedicated to doing the tasks they've been assigned to do.

The "word salads" are simply that they speak a different language than we do - like the languages God had our Text written in for us.

The perfect tense doesn't amplify anything. It focuses on the past event, the current state at the time of writing, or both. A lot of the scholarly discussion concerns the focus and the type of action.

You're actually correct in your last statement - if you believed in the past (such as aorist tense) then that action was completed (but it's not said that your belief will last). If you believed in the past and are believing now (perfect tense), then that action was completed and has lasted up to now (but it's not said that your belief will last). Just keep believing (continuous present) and do so until the end (future) and no issues. This is what the warnings and the mutual encouragement are about.

"brothers" (the actual language of the Text) is mainly a term for human family, racial family, and covenantal family. Under the NC if you're in Christ, then you're a covenantal and spiritual brother of mine (and I have to ask my Father and first-born brother and Lord at times, really?).

We have to watch how writers are using the term and at times consider that they may be saying 'brothers' knowing they may not be speaking to 'brothers' but to those who seem at the moment to be in the Body.

 

[Roger316]

Some of those "Scholars" are most certainly not weaseling out of anything - they're dedicated to doing the tasks they've been assigned to do.

The "word salads" are simply that they speak a different language than we do - like the languages God had our Text written in for us.

The perfect tense doesn't amplify anything. It focuses on the past event, the current state at the time of writing, or both. A lot of the scholarly discussion concerns the focus and the type of action.

You're actually correct in your last statement - if you believed in the past (such as aorist tense) then that action was completed (but it's not said that your belief will last). If you believed in the past and are believing now (perfect tense), then that action was completed and has lasted up to now (but it's not said that your belief will last). Just keep believing (continuous present) and do so until the end (future) and no issues. This is what the warnings and the mutual encouragement are about.

"brothers" (the actual language of the Text) is mainly a term for human family, racial family, and covenantal family. Under the NC if you're in Christ, then you're a covenantal and spiritual brother of mine (and I have to ask my Father and first-born brother and Lord at times, really?).

We have to watch how writers are using the term and at times consider that they may be saying 'brothers' knowing they may not be speaking to 'brothers' but to those who seem at the moment to be in the Body.

Jesus is being descriptive, not prescriptive, in that passage. He isn't saying "I will give eternal life to anyone who hears my word and keeps it." That construction is prescriptive. Rather, Jesus is being descriptive, saying, "among all those who hear my word, some of them will believe it and have eternal life."

 

[studier]

I am always leery of exegetes who lack that sense of peaceful inner resolve in their expression.
A true exegetical teacher would have the Holy Spirit giving him a back bone of iron.
When I sense cracking wood?
I keep my distance.
Friendly, but claiming my space.

I'm cautiously open to likely more than you and maybe critiquing differently than you are.
Even those exegetes with strong back-bones make mistakes.
It's the content I'm interested in, not the persona - I must have heard 'it's not the man, it's the message' who knows how many times...

 

[studier]

And this is what you reject. The plain and simple meaning.

The speaker/writer could not possibly state the current(present) state if the past action was not a COMPLETED action.

There is no "present" state if the past action was not complete and total.

Neither the aorist nor the perfect tense say in themselves the completed action will last forever.

It's not the completed action that is being argued - it's the lasting state that is being argued.

You're simply putting a continuing line on that chart I posted - a line that the perfect tense doesn't include.

The lasting line has to come from other verb forms and/or context and/or other statements properly interpreted.

You're a challenge, but maybe this will help. I'm going to translate these 2 verses as they can be translated with some elaboration and ask you to think about how they reconcile:

John5:24 Amen, Amen, I'm telling you that the [man] who is hearing my word/message and is believing the [man] who sent me, has/is having life ever-lasting/eternal and into judgment is not coming/proceeding on a course, but has passed/moved from the death into the life and is currently in the life.​

​

1John3:16 We have known and currently know that we have passed/moved from the death into the life because we are loving the brothers. The [man] who is not loving is remaining in the death.​

I'm elaborating the perfect tense, but part of the ongoing research and discussion about it is what exactly is its focus - the past or the present at the time of writing, and/or the type of action, etc.

So, Jesus told us how He views the man who currently has life - and John later explains how to know we currently have life.

These are not in conflict.

What's the commonality?

 

[studier]

What did Jesus mean when he shouted out "Tetelestai?" It is Finished!

Tetelestai (τετέλεσται) is a Greek word used in John 19:30, in the perfect passive indicative tense, derived from the verb teleo. It literally means "it has been and is finished," signifying an action completed in the past with results that continue in the present and future—often translated as "paid in full" or "it is accomplished".

Perfect Tense Definition: This tense combines a completed action with ongoing, permanent results. It means the work was finished in the past, and it remains finished forever.

You keep trying to buck the tiger with pastors I have heard who taught in the Greek.

Firstly, where are you getting the definition and what precedes it? Please post a link to the reference or identify it and post all context (if there's more) if there's no link.

The "future" and "permanent results" do not come from the perfect tense, but from other instruction in the NC writings.

Jesus is basically saying, 'the job is done' - then we go to other instruction to see what the results are and learn they are everlasting. Also, He in time was yet to be pierced, buried, resurrected, witnessed to, ascended & seated so all was not finished. As Paul argued, apart from the resurrection our faith is empty and useless (1Cor15).

Note a couple things here:

• Is the perfect tense main focus on the past or the present at that moment?
• the passive voice should also tell us something about the mind of our Lord - He does say "I completed the job" - His focus is on the work that is finished.

That's what we do - we buck one another until we've got it right - just like here in this forum even though here most seem to think they have everything right already.