Was Mary Sinless?

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randyk

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...

Tristan said:
His flesh had sin... Hear me out. The excuse given for why babies get cancer is that we live in a fallen world and the sins of their ancestors were passed down to them. Mary was Jesus flesh and blood Mother and she had to have sinned.... Even if she didn't King David had dude killed to sleep with Bathsheba.
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I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.
 
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randyk said:
From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.
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The sin nature is passed from the father, not the mother. This is why Jesus was uniquely the "seed of a woman." Having no earthly father, He inherited no sin nature. It is also a biological miracle that He was male, since we know today that the Y chromosome is passed directly from father to son. Every other man on earth shares Adam’s Y chromosome, but Jesus was the only one to ever bypass that lineage.
 
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Just_A__Follower said:
The sin nature is passed from the father, not the mother. This is why Jesus was uniquely the "seed of a woman." Having no earthly father, He inherited no sin nature. It is also a biological miracle that He was male, since we know today that the Y chromosome is passed directly from father to son. Every other man on earth shares Adam’s Y chromosome, but Jesus was the only one to ever bypass that lineage.
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Like most folks you assume the HS implanted only the sperm, but because Mary was a sinner,
it makes more sense IMO that the HS implanted a clean/untainted zygote.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb said:
How's that? She was in need of a Savior like all of us, she sinned like all of us. What do you mean by blameless?
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Blameless means faultless before God, which all people who walk in the faith of Christ are. It doesn't mean sinless. For example:

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless (ἄμεμπτος ). Luke 1:5-6​

Blameless
G273 ἄμεμπτος amemptos (a'-memp-tos) adj.
irreproachable.
 
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GWH said:
Like most folks you assume the HS implanted only the sperm, but because Mary was a sinner,
it makes more sense IMO that the HS implanted a clean/untainted zygote.
Click to expand...

I am becoming more persuaded that this is true.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Blameless means faultless before God, which all people who walk in the faith of Christ are. It doesn't mean sinless. For example:

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless (ἄμεμπτος ). Luke 1:5-6​

Blameless
G273 ἄμεμπτος amemptos (a'-memp-tos) adj.
irreproachable.
Click to expand...

And how were righteous people under the law who sinned blameless? They offered and placed their faith in the required sacrifices for their sins. The same way we place our faith in the eternal sacrifice when we sin
 
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Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary was not sinless.

The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic dogma that the virgin Mary was preserved free from all stain of the original sin from the first moment of her conception in St. Anne's womb.

Declared in 1854 by Pope Pius IX, this doctrine signifies Mary's unique holiness, chosen by God to be the sinless vessel for Jesus.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Mary had no need to be freed from original sin for babies are innocent with no sin on their record until the age of accountability.

Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit and there was no need for Mary to have a change distinct from anyone else.

All are sinners including Mary except Jesus.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John was the only human to have the Holy Spirit from the womb but not to save him but to give him power to live right and prepare the way for Jesus.

That is why he is the greatest born among women that had a human father.

John was born greater than Mary.

Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus did not put Mary on a pedestal and did not make her out to be greater or better than any other person.

But He put her in the same boat as everyone else.

Mary had a human father and mother and was not conceived by the Spirit so she could not be sinless.

John had the Holy Spirit from the womb and is greater than Mary and he was a sinner.

So Mary could not escape that.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

This includes all people except the man Christ Jesus.

It is obvious when the Roman Empire embraced Christianity they did not get rid of their pagan and occult ways and it became their foundation for interpreting scriptures.

The pagan religions have a female deity and the Roman Catholic has to have one too.

Which is why they say Mary is the Queen of heaven and the mother of God.
 
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randyk said:
From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.
Click to expand...

If Mary were sinless, she would not need a Savior.

Luke 1:46-47
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
 
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GWH said:
Like most folks you assume the HS implanted only the sperm, but because Mary was a sinner,
it makes more sense IMO that the HS implanted a clean/untainted zygote.
Click to expand...
So you assume Mary was just a surrogate? How would He be the seed of David?
 
randyk said:
From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.
Click to expand...
Perhaps a bit of semantics, but we are born in trespass and sin. We sin because we are sinners by nature. Jesus received His nature from the Holy Spirit, not from fallen Adam. So the only escape is to accept Christ as saviour.

In a sense, the only sin is to reject the salvation that God offers us through Christ. That is God's initial judgement. Either men are judged as sinners or attend a prize giving ceremony for the saints.
 
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