Loss of salvation???

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Roger316 said:
The phrase eternal life denotes permanence.
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That's one view.

But then we get into what eternal life is and if it's qualified in some ways we don't seem to want to deal with.

There are many ways to approach the topic.

Since I've asked a couple others here to harmonize 1John3:14 with John5:24, how about the next verse in 1John:

NKJ 1John3:14-15 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So, we've been moved from death to life per John5:24 - but if we're not loving as Jesus commands, then we're not actually moved and are remaining in death - and if we're not loving, then we're hating and murderers and do not have eternal life remaining in us?

Then, what is Jesus saying here:

NKJ John17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I see John elaborating on and clarifying John5:24 at minimum with 1John3:14. Similarly, I see him doing the same in 1John2 with John17:3.

IMO, there is a logical chain that runs through all of this and it can be seen in the verb tenses for one thing and then in the explanatory content.
 
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Lamar said:
You and others here are making an absurd assertion!

The notion that since Jesus tells us that His followers will follow Him then anyone who claims to follow Him are His followers.

Are you so obtuse that you cannot see the circular reasoning you are employing?
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The absurdity is yours. You can stop pretending it all depends on you.
 
Lamar said:
You and others here are making an absurd assertion!

The notion that since Jesus tells us that His followers will follow Him then anyone who claims to follow Him are His followers.

Are you so obtuse that you cannot see the circular reasoning you are employing?
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That's a good point. Not all who claim to follow him, actually follow him
 
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NightTwister said:
Atheists make your same argument regarding proof of the Canon. They are also wrong.
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Atheists also use circular reasoning, just as you are doing now.

Again, stop pretending and either admit it's circular reasoning or prove it is not.
 
studier said:
That's one view.
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Can you find a passage where eternal life doesn't indicate permanence?
studier said:
But then we get into what eternal life is and if it's qualified in some ways we don't seem to want to deal with.
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In some passages, the phrase "eternal life" refers to "the age of ages" or "life as it will be in the coming age."

studier said:
There are many ways to approach the topic.

Since I've asked a couple others here to harmonize 1John3:14 with John5:24, how about the next verse in 1John:

NKJ 1John3:14-15 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So, we've been moved from death to life per John5:24 - but if we're not loving as Jesus commands, then we're not actually moved and are remaining in death - and if we're not loving, then we're hating and murderers and do not have eternal life remaining in us?
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What exactly does John mean when he uses the second person plural, "we" in 1 John 3:14-15? Why does he contrast it with the third person "he" in the following verses? Since the first chapter he has set out to draw a distinction between "those who have fellowship with God" and those who don't.

The major oppositional labels in 1 John are: Light vs. Darkness, truth vs. lie, Love vs. hate, obedience vs. lawlessness, confessing Christ vs. not confessing Christ, and Born of God and not of God. These contrasts are one of his signature rhetorical strategies—he loves stark binaries that force the reader to self‑examine.

His sharp contrasts are not weapons for policing others—they’re mirrors for examining ourselves. In this instance, I know that I have passed from death to life BECAUSE I love the brothers. And why is this significant? Loving the brothers is one of several key markers that identify those who belong to God. Jesus warned us that if they hated me, they would hate you. When Jesus says this to the disciples, He’s not giving them permission to resent the world or to feel morally superior. He’s preparing them for the shock of being misunderstood, rejected, or even persecuted precisely because they belong to Him.


studier said:
Then, what is Jesus saying here:

NKJ John17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I see John elaborating on and clarifying John5:24 at minimum with 1John3:14. Similarly, I see him doing the same in 1John2 with John17:3.

IMO, there is a logical chain that runs through all of this and it can be seen in the verb tenses for one thing and then in the explanatory content.
Click to expand...
Another key element in John 17:3 is what Jesus means by "know you." I think he means "live in a covenant relation with the Father." To know him is to love, respect, obey, follow, and agree with him."
 
Lamar said:
But it does not denote application, implementation or receiving.

And this is what you are not grasping.
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We understand a passage or a verse by considering the meaning of all the words together, which form a single thought. Consider the context of John 5:24. What just happened to prompt Jesus to say this?

Jesus just healed a man who couldn't walk. What does it say about a person who saw Jesus heal a man who couldn't walk, but even in light of that miracle, would not believe what Jesus said?

When someone sees a miracle of Jesus with their own eyes and still refuses to believe His words, Scripture treats that as something far deeper than a simple lack of information. In the Johannine worldview, it reveals something about the inner posture of the heart.

  • Some people “saw His signs” and still did not believe (John 12:37).
  • Others saw the same signs and believed (John 2:11).
The difference isn’t the evidence—it’s the condition of the heart.

Jesus is helping the crowds understand the attribute that distinguishes the two groups.
 
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Lamar said:
Atheists also use circular reasoning, just as you are doing now.

Again, stop pretending and either admit it's circular reasoning or prove it is not.
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Scriptures have been provided. You disagree with them because they create problems with your works-based salvation doctrine. You believe those scriptures mean something different. You're wrong.
 
Roger316 said:
Can you find a passage where eternal life doesn't indicate permanence?
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You said it means permanence. Can you show us why?
Roger316 said:
Another key element in John 17:3 is what Jesus means by "know you." I think he means "live in a covenant relation with the Father." To know him is to love, respect, obey, follow, and agree with him."
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Your instincts here are good IMO. Scripture would be helpful, so I offer you this:

NKJ 1John2:3-6 Now by this we know that we know Him, if (3rd-class) we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought (obligation) himself also to walk just as He walked.​
Roger316 said:
What exactly does John mean when he uses the second person plural, "we" in 1 John 3:14-15? Why does he contrast it with the third person "he" in the following verses? Since the first chapter he has set out to draw a distinction between "those who have fellowship with God" and those who don't.

The major oppositional labels in 1 John are: Light vs. Darkness, truth vs. lie, Love vs. hate, obedience vs. lawlessness, confessing Christ vs. not confessing Christ, and Born of God and not of God. These contrasts are one of his signature rhetorical strategies—he loves stark binaries that force the reader to self‑examine.

His sharp contrasts are not weapons for policing others—they’re mirrors for examining ourselves. In this instance, I know that I have passed from death to life BECAUSE I love the brothers. And why is this significant? Loving the brothers is one of several key markers that identify those who belong to God. Jesus warned us that if they hated me, they would hate you. When Jesus says this to the disciples, He’s not giving them permission to resent the world or to feel morally superior. He’s preparing them for the shock of being misunderstood, rejected, or even persecuted precisely because they belong to Him.
Click to expand...
In one respect John is qualifying the depth of meaning of what Jesus proclaimed per GJohn.

Yes, he's explaining what true association with Christ who is eternal life looks like and how to self-assess and also to assess as necessary when others who may be false (false teachers/ones who departed) or be in trouble (those who need prayer and assistance) should be recognized. The shift from we to a singular he seems pretty simple in that he's isolating the ones who don't get it.

He's providing a lot of qualifying language for who and what a Christian is and he's not pulling a lot of punches calling the disobedient 'liars'.

Again, so not to lose sight of what we're doing here, the verb tenses back in John5:24 and in 1John3:14 fit with all of this and the commonality in all of these verses and topics seems very clear to me.

What I'm fascinated by is how difficult it is for some to see the thread that ties it all together.
 
Toknow said:
2 of 3



I don't care too much for language lessons.
I care about what the NT teaches.
I care about what Jesus taught.

This is what Jesus taught:


John 12:47-48
47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.


Let's read again:

Ephesians 2:8.9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


We are saved BY FAITH.
IF we lose faith in God...we will no longer be saved since it's faith that saves.
I posted some scripture above that supports my statement that salvation can be lost.
There are many more if needed.

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes sir....no amount of works will save us WITHOUT FAITH....
Because it is FAITH THAT SAVES.

But let's look also at verse 10 which many do not care for:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


We are created for good works...which is exactly what Jesus taught.
In John 12:48 Jesus stated that if we do not receive His words...we will be under judgement.



Your scripture:

1 Peter 1:3-9

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


You left out the beginning verses,
so let's post all of it and go through it.
Comments will be in green.

1 Peter 1:1-9
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

We are saved through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. Sanctifying means the action is ongoing.
We are to obey Christ.


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

The imperishable inheritance is our future life in heaven.

5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are protected by God THROUGH FAITH for a salvation that will be revealed at the last time..
this refers to WILL BE SAVED..when we RECEIVE our salvation.
Again, No Faith = No salvation. We must have faith at the time of our death...
and not fall away from it.

6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

What is the proof of our faith if not obedience to Jesus....receiving His word, as He stated in John 12....
Doing the will of the Father in Matthew 7....

This glory and honor will be revealed at the end of everything...our resurrection.

8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

We must BELIEVE IN JESUS.
Follow His teachings/be His disciples.

9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Please note: The OUTCOME of our FAITH will be the salvation of our souls.

All the writers of the NT believed faith msut be ongoing and present at the end of our life.
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Yes, we can lose salvation! There are so many verses throughout the NC warning us to continue in the gospel.

Many are called, but few are chosen.
 
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Lamar said:
But it's the claim that makes a person a sheep, correct?
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No, it's by God not man that a person is made of His sheep.

[Jhn 10:9 KJV] 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
 
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