Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

I know your unlinked authority was wrong, just as you are wrong for not identifying it.

It's not up to me to locate anything you draw from even if I might guess where it may have come from.

You're obviously sensitive re: it, so I won't press anymore. You can PM me if you'd like to discuss such things privately for whatever your reasons. But, please, let's not play these games. I'll try to continue the practice of identifying any reference I may use. I'd appreciate the same respect.

There you go!
Thumbs up from the resident legalist.

There's the company you keep.

Not wasting my time.

You are studied in exegetical technique.
Why not frequent forums that cater to such as that?

No... you want to confront those who have no such gift.
And, only to tear down if you can...

 

[Kroogz]

I don't really think that either of us thinks there is nothing distinct & certain about our Lord God.

So what is certain?

Im sorry Brother. You don't paint a pretty picture.

You have us all on edge and wondering.

The Lord Jesus Christ Gives us certainty and assurance.......I will stick with Him.

 

[Kroogz]

We should stick with one verse at a time.

There's no absolute negative in John5:24.

Wouldn't you want to see where security actually is rather than being wrong about where it isn't?

It is a double negative. No, No not ever will we come into judgement.

Kick against the goads all you want.......He WILL SAVE YOU.

 

[studier]

There you go!
Thumbs up from the resident legalist.

There's the company you keep.

Not wasting my time.

You are studied in exegetical technique.
Why not frequent forums that cater to such as that?

No... you want to confront those who have no such gift.
And, only to tear down if you can...

Interesting that someone who believes conditional statements and proper obedience to God are meaningful is a 'legalist'.

That might be one of the most abused words in christendom.

Anyone who reads the Word of God with purpose and is willing to have meaningful discussions about it is good company IMO.

I've not found any great forums you speak of. If you know of them, I'm all eyes.

Odd that trying to clarify and find accuracy in the Text is tearing down. Odd that trying to get at assurance as it may actually be stated and to understand all conditionals and warnings properly would be considered tearing down.

Ever do any building? Sometimes things need to be torn down to varying degrees to be built back soundly. Sometimes foundations need to be scraped and a new one laid and a new building erected. When we're the building, it can be a painful process but worth it in the end.

 

[studier]

It is a double negative. No, No not ever will we come into judgement.

Kick against the goads all you want.......He WILL SAVE YOU.

Wrong again, but trying to get you guys to actually read Scripture with some accuracy surely doesn't work.

Saw one of your posts re: snow levels on the News Forum. How's the weather? I was born in SD - Rapid City AFB.

 

[Qt]

What did Jesus mean when he shouted out "Tetelestai?" It is Finished!

Tetelestai (τετέλεσται) is a Greek word used in John 19:30, in the perfect passive indicative tense, derived from the verb teleo. It literally means "it has been and is finished," signifying an action completed in the past with results that continue in the present and future—often translated as "paid in full" or "it is accomplished".

Perfect Tense Definition: This tense combines a completed action with ongoing, permanent results. It means the work was finished in the past, and it remains finished forever.

You keep trying to buck the tiger with pastors I have heard who taught in the Greek.

Are these examples of other words that are perfect passive indicative permanent?

Probably not huh?

There are more, would you like to see them?

Matt 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mark 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

 

[Kroogz]

Neither the aorist nor the perfect tense say in themselves the completed action will last forever.

It's not the completed action that is being argued - it's the lasting state that is being argued.

You're simply putting a continuing line on that chart I posted - a line that the perfect tense doesn't include.

The lasting line has to come from other verb forms and/or context and/or other statements properly interpreted.

You're a challenge, but maybe this will help. I'm going to translate these 2 verses as they can be translated with some elaboration and ask you to think about how they reconcile:

John5:24 Amen, Amen, I'm telling you that the [man] who is hearing my word/message and is believing the [man] who sent me, has/is having life ever-lasting/eternal and into judgment is not coming/proceeding on a course, but has passed/moved from the death into the life and is currently in the life.​

​

1John3:16 We have known and currently know that we have passed/moved from the death into the life because we are loving the brothers. The [man] who is not loving is remaining in the death.​

I'm elaborating the perfect tense, but part of the ongoing research and discussion about it is what exactly is its focus - the past or the present at the time of writing, and/or the type of action, etc.

So, Jesus told us how He views the man who currently has life - and John later explains how to know we currently have life.

These are not in conflict.

What's the commonality?

The commonality is the Lord Jesus Christ. With your take and discernment nothing He has done is certain.

He might have died for us.
He might have finished it.
He might have been raised.
He might be seated at the right hand of the Father.


If we have no certainty , then the Lord Jesus Christ has none.


At some point in time you need to make up your mind and believe. Sitting on the fence does no good.


The perfect tense elaborates the past COMPLETED action. Jesus Christ was crucified for the whole world. It is true yesterday, today and tomorrow. And will remain true forever.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.........Eternal security in it's simplest form. Act 16:31

 

[Kroogz]

Wrong again, but trying to get you guys to actually read Scripture with some accuracy surely doesn't work.

Saw one of your posts re: snow levels on the News Forum. How's the weather? I was born in SD - Rapid City AFB.

Well show us then? John 5:24 double negative...... no, no not ever come into judgement.

Look into John 11:26 also.

Grasping at straws @studier




https://www.weather.gov/abr/HarshProlongedWinter1996-1997

https://www.dvm360.com/view/blizzard-leaves-thousands-cattle-dead-across-western-south-dakota

 

[TruthDefender]

The problem I see is that none of the perfect tense verses that have been in question are reliant on our believing, they all speak of God's actions which is what makes them permanent. In respect to the past action, our believing or lack of it, is irrelevant.

Eph.2:8 salvation will always be a gift by grace through faith. God has determined that. Our believing can receive that gift but we did not determine that action.
Jn.5:24 again, it is God who performs the action of the giving.

I think there was a third verse in question but can't remember off the top of my head now, either way our believing is irrelevant to the truth of the statements. Whether people believe or not they remain true in every future present moment. They will never be not true even if people don't believe.

They do not prove in and of themself OSAS or non-OSAS.

What they can say to us, if we meet the criteria, our salvation is secure. If we do not, then those verses are simply not applicable and irrelevant.

What I find sad, are those who look at those verses and see they meet the criteria and yet, are still insecure about their salvation.

The verse that you used (Eph. 2:8) even states that salvation is through faith.
So if one loses their faith, salvation is no longer there. Salvation is dependent on faith!

It is sad when people aren’t understanding this simple thing, because they’re trying to twist it into something that is not there. It’s very clear!

 

[sawdust]

Because they are humble enough to know that they (like all of us) could be wrong.

Lord, Lord did we not.

But not you...of course.

So you think you could be wrong that God's salvation is a gift given by grace through faith? Or that He gives eternal life to those who believe and relieves them of condemnation?

God's word is true whether we believe or not, that was the point you seem to have missed.

As for one believing or not, only you can tell whether you believe or not, unless you are a double minded man and do not know what you believe, and you certainly can't decide whether another believes or doesn't, so I suggest your snide remark is misplaced.

 

[sawdust]

The verse that you used (Eph. 2:8) even states that salvation is through faith.
So if one loses their faith, salvation is no longer there. Salvation is dependent on faith!

It is sad when people aren’t understanding this simple thing, because they’re trying to twist it into something that is not there. It’s very clear!

Again, you are not seeing the point. Whether one believes or doesn't, does not alter the truth that God saves by grace through faith.

If one loses their faith, as you claim, then the verse doesn't apply to them but it is still true. The verse is talking about how one is saved, not if one is saved.

Yes, it is clear, God's word remains true eternally whether people believe or not.

 

[TruthDefender]

FALSE

They had it for many years but didn’t feed their spirit so their faith became so weak they lost it.

 

[NightTwister]

The verse that you used (Eph. 2:8) even states that salvation is through faith.
So if one loses their faith, salvation is no longer there. Salvation is dependent on faith!

It is sad when people aren’t understanding this simple thing, because they’re trying to twist it into something that is not there. It’s very clear!

Faith is a gift from God. It's not something we produce on our own. God gives good gifts to His children, not ones that fade or can be lost.

 

[rogerg]

The verse that you used (Eph. 2:8) even states that salvation is through faith.
So if one loses their faith, salvation is no longer there. Salvation is dependent on faith!

It is sad when people aren’t understanding this simple thing, because they’re trying to twist it into something that is not there. It’s very clear!

No. The faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is Christ's faith, not man's faith. Christ's faith brought forth salvation, man's faith didn't - the salvation plan of the Father was effectuated by Christ and His perfect offering and sacrifice, which demonstrated His faith and allegiance to the Father's plan of salvation. Look at verse 2:8 following. Do you see the "and that not of yourselves" and "the gift of God"? To be true, both its grace and faith had to be provided and satisfied by God alone. Read verses 2:1 up to and including 2:8 (and beyond). They are a continuance of a single doctrine - that salvation is God's work in all of its aspects; none to be satisfied by man, except to be its beneficiary. And that is what makes salvation by grace through faith.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[Genez]

Wrong again, but trying to get you guys to actually read Scripture with some accuracy surely doesn't work.

Your 'coy ploy' is not going to work here.

If you were a competent exegetical teacher you would know better.

 

[TruthDefender]

Faith is a gift from God. It's not something we produce on our own. God gives good gifts to His children, not ones that fade or can be lost.

Then you’re NOT understanding Scripture! Of course it is a gift, but only through faith….as long as you hold onto your faith.

 

[TruthDefender]

No. The faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is Christ's faith, not man's faith. Christ's faith brought forth salvation, man's faith didn't - the salvation plan of the Father was effectuated by Christ and His perfect offering and sacrifice, which demonstrated His faith and allegiance to the Father's plan of salvation. Look at verse 2:8 following. Do you see the "and that not of yourselves" and "the gift of God"? To be true, both its grace and faith had to be provided and satisfied by God alone. Read verses 2:1 up to and including 2:8 (and beyond). They are a continuance of a single doctrine - that salvation is God's work in all of its aspects; none to be satisfied by man, except to be its beneficiary. And that is what makes salvation by grace through faith.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

So you’re saying that man doesn’t have to have faith?! Christ has faith in Himself?!
lol

 

[TruthDefender]

Again, you are not seeing the point. Whether one believes or doesn't, does not alter the truth that God saves by grace through faith.

If one loses their faith, as you claim, then the verse doesn't apply to them but it is still true. The verse is talking about how one is saved, not if one is saved.

Yes, it is clear, God's word remains true eternally whether people believe or not.

Yes, God never changes. At least you got this correct!

It’s more like you’re not understanding the verses!! You say it doesn’t matter if someone loses their faith, they’re going to be saved anyway.

There is not a verse in Scripture that corroborates what you believe. This would mean that the whole world is going to be saved, whether they’re wicked or not.

FALSE doctrine, heretical!!

 

[Genez]

The verse that you used (Eph. 2:8) even states that salvation is through faith.
So if one loses their faith, salvation is no longer there. Salvation is dependent on faith!

If you escaped a house on fire by going through an exit tunnel ?
Will you stop being "escaped" from the fire if that tunnel is destroyed after having used it to escape?

The faith needed to be saved?
It was there at the moment it was needed to be saved.

So?
What happens to your faith after your were saved?
That will determine if you continue to mature spiritually.

But, no matter what... you were already saved from Hell the moment you believed in Jesus.

 

[Genez]

Are these examples of other words that are perfect passive indicative permanent?

Probably not huh?

There are more, would you like to see them?

Matt 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mark 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

God saves permanently!

Go does not, only appear to save.

What sin can you commit after salvation that Jesus did not bear on the Cross?