Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

Repeat and already responded to.
Sounds like you want me to leave so you can assert your 'maturity' over the 'stupid'.
Who's pretending exegesis is easy? Like anything though, it does become easier over time.
But I try to always remain prepared to learn something new from someone and I do try to keep up on at least some of the latest scholarship.
Remember what I said to you recently about eating crow?
As I recall, you're old enough to have also grown up in the era of westerns - I was influenced as a kid by the concept that there's always a faster gun. Also, there's always the Ultimate Genius to prove us all dumb.
No interest in Scripture, huh?

You got a problem, sir.

The Holy Spirit is simply using me to expose it.

And, you have those who agree with you.
They are your epistle.

 

[JayWalker]

Saved from what?

More shuck and jive I see.

Distraction is what those who are unskillful in the Word of righteousness engage in.

 

[JayWalker]

King Saul sought out the witch of Endor, and ended dying a horrible death in battle.
But, after he died he did not end up going to hell.

King Saul was rejected by the Lord and is not mentioned in the Faith Hall of Fame in Hebrews 11

He's being tortured in hell right now because he was in right standing with the Lord but he turned away and never came back.

Same goes for Solomon. He went to hell as well for the same reason.

They should have been like David and repented from their sin and got back on track with the Lord but they did not and were lost.

It's too bad to hear someone claim that a person can rebel against the Lord and engage in witchcraft and still be saved

Those teaching such false doctrine will be joining King Saul and Solomon for leading people astray

 

[Roger316]

It's an argument from silence either way - which is pretty much the point of the discussion about the perfect tense.

If the perfect tense were to speak of permanence, then argument over, it's permanent. But the perfect tense doesn't speak of permanence.

If the perfect tense does not speak of permanence, which it doesn't, then permanence or loss is argument from silence and each position needs to be proven by other means - other words - other Scriptures...

Which is why you brought eternal life into play.

Which brought out more discussion as to what EL really is in all of its meaning and use and whether or not having it means we cannot walk away from it.

And so on and so on, etc., etc., etc...

I don't think it's an argument from silence to consider Paul's overall perspective and then draw conclusions about a specific passage from that. For example, look at the New Testament teaching on eternal life and how that phrase is used in different places. A word study will reveal a larger concept centered around life in the coming age. Around here, we have coined the word aionic life: life as it will be in the age of ages.

Aionic life isn't merely an extension of this life that lasts forever and ever. It will be a world populated by human beings who have attained glorification and behave appropriately. They will love, honor, and obey God in every way. They will be dedicated to goodness, righteousness, and truth. And they will manifest the fruits of the Spirit.

When Jesus says that his sheep, his followers, have eternal life, he means that they have an entrance into Aionic life.

To put a sharper point on it, consider Paul

 

[Roger316]

Saved from what?

Good question.

Saved from evil in this world? No.

Saved from unhappiness? No.

Good points in my opinion.

.

 

[Roger316]

OK so you do believe then that a person can reject the Lord after having been born again and go back to living in open sin and rebellion against the Lord and still be saved.

We believe that being "born again" is evidence of being chosen by God for salvation. Those who are genuinely born-again would never go back to living in open sin and rebellion against the Lord.

Hate to break it to ya man, but that's false doctrine and is only taught be those who do not accept the whole counsel of God.

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if
thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Some people believe that Paul is talking about individuals here, when in fact, he is talking about generations. The branches represent generations of people: the cultivated branches represent generations of Israelites; the wild branches represent generations of Gentiles.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus
Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Peter is making a very sharp distinction between appearing sanctified and being sanctified. In Peter’s logic, the false teachers were never actually sanctified in fact. They experienced something that looked like sanctification from the outside, but their nature was never changed.

This is the key.
The dog returns to its own vomit. The sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire. These aren't random insults. They're ontological statements.

• A dog returns to vomit because it is a dog
• A pig returns to mud because it is a pig

Washing the pig doesn’t make it a sheep. Cleaning the dog doesn’t make it a lamb.

Peter’s point is unmistakable:
The nature of the False Teachers never changed. Their behavior changed temporarily. That is the difference between false conversion and true sanctification.

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

*A person cannot depart from something they were never a part of to begin with
*Notice that this is speaking to "brethren" so this is a warning from the Lord to Christians.

We should avoid making broad generalizations. Paul understands that his readers are hearing from false teachers who oppose the gospel and are trying to sway them away from it. Some of these disciples have genuine and honest doubts, while others are driven by social concerns. In other words, some disciples have intellectual questions, while others have hearts of unbelief.

Paul is not speaking to a group he knows are all born-again believers, warning them to avoid being motivated by hearts of unbelief. Instead, he is addressing a group of Hebrews whose spiritual status is unknown.

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

*A person cannot depart from the faith is they were never in the faith begin with

Here, the word "faith" doesn't refer to the believer's internal conviction; it refers to the content of the gospel message. To depart from "the faith" means to stop believing the gospel.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Undoubtedly, Paul is confronting those who claim to believe in Jesus Christ, but their doubts about the apostleship of Paul call into question whether they are "in the faith" or whether Christ is in them. The test is meant to demonstrate a person's status, not the content of their faith.

There are many reasons why a person might believe the gospel, but those who God is saving are sanctified by his Spirit and they have Christ in them.

Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

During Paul's time, some citizens of Israel did not follow the law; they were called "sinners." It was not a matter of morality but of orthopraxy. Paul once tried to be justified by following the law, but now he seeks justification through Christ. If Paul and Peter no longer follow the law, does that mean Christ advocated for not practicing the law?

 

[Genez]

More shuck and jive I see.

Distraction is what those who are unskillful in the Word of righteousness engage in.

It is funny how this is going to play out when God gets to tell what is taking place here.

 

[Roger316]

This is not a forum designed for people with your gift to exegete.
I have seen forums that are.
I have seen that exegesis is not a simple process as you pretend it to be.
I find it pretentious of you to present it as such.

I wouldn't say that exegesis is a gift. It's a practice that requires hard work. Some of us have the time for it, while others don't. That's okay, though—God's Holy Spirit can communicate what we need to hear in many ways.

 

[JayWalker]

We believe that being "born again" is evidence of being chosen by God for salvation.

And yet scripture teaches that God wants ALL to be saved and has provided a way for ALL to become born again.

It's false doctrine to claim Jesus only went to the cross for a few as the calvinists claim.

Some people believe that Paul is talking about individuals here, when in fact, he is talking about generations

He's talking about any and all who don not continue in the Lord's goodness.

Jesus said we must endure IN Him until the end of our lives to be saved in the end.

Not all abide in Him after getting born again.

Peter is making a very sharp distinction between appearing sanctified and being sanctified.

False teachers reject God's warnings like you have just rejected 2 Peter 2:20

The Lord is clearly telling Christians here that if "they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning"

This is God's warning to the backslider that if after getting born again they backslide and turn away from the Lord they will not be saved.

The backslider must forsake and confess their sins, in order to have mercy
see: Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9

We should avoid making broad generalizations.

Actually we should avoid rejecting what God says in His Word.

Here, the word "faith" doesn't refer to the believer's internal conviction; it refers to the content of the gospel message. To depart from "the faith" means to stop believing the gospel.

Yes, this is another one of God's warnings to the backslider that if after getting born again they backslide and turn away from the Lord they will not be saved.

There are many reasons why a person might believe the gospel, but those who God is saving are sanctified by his Spirit and they have Christ in them.

And some turn away from the Lord after having been born again and become reprobates

If Paul and Peter no longer follow the law, does that mean Christ advocated for not practicing the law?

We are under the law of Christ in the New Covenant, not the old testament law.

Follow the OT law at your own peril.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[HeIsHere]

You got a problem, sir.

The Holy Spirit is simply using me to expose it.

And, you have those who agree with you.
They are your epistle.

Preaching a salvation dependent on human behaviour is so antithetical to the message of the Good News that one can only assume they have not properly understood the Good News.

I suppose the dialogue however is important in the objective sense but knowing people like @Toknow on CC for many years, they will not be convinced because they have the first principles wrong.

That is my opinion any.

 

[Genez]

I wouldn't say that exegesis is a gift. It's a practice that requires hard work. Some of us have the time for it, while others don't. That's okay, though—God's Holy Spirit can communicate what we need to hear in many ways.

Jehovah Witnesses have their own scholars. So does the RCC.

Means nothing more than the integrity of the one exegeting, for things can be twisted (and will be).

God knows our hearts. He leads accordingly to men to teach us. Be it for divine good, or deserved punishment.

Here is the key to why we see what we are getting passed down the table.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

Self-deception leads to sharing deception.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, this is another one of God's warnings to the backslider that if after getting born again they backslide and turn away from the Lord they will not be saved.

And yet this cannot be quantified that is why it not objectively true.

 

[HeIsHere]

Self-deception leads to sharing deception.

Very true!

 

[JayWalker]

It is funny how this is going to play out when God gets to tell what is taking place here.

Yeah you're in trouble for teaching a different gospel and another "jesus"

In the end it ain't gonna be nothing nice for those teaching such.

I wouldn't say that exegesis is a gift. It's a practice that requires hard work. Some of us have the time for it, while others don't. That's okay, though—God's Holy Spirit can communicate what we need to hear in many ways.

I'll go with the Holy Spirit over "hard work" any day.

Most putting in so called "hard work" are parroting false teachers as they are reading books and study material written by men on what they claim their favorite denomination teaches rather then studying God's Word allowing the Holy Spirit to be their Teacher.

Jehovah Witnesses have their own scholars. So does the RCC.

Means nothing more than the integrity of the one exegeting, for things can be twisted (and will be).

Same is true for those following so called "reformed theology"

These people are well versed in false doctrine

 

[Genez]

Preaching a salvation dependent on human behaviour is so antithetical to the message of the Good News that one can only assume they have not properly understood the Good News.

I suppose the dialogue however is important in the objective sense but knowing people like @Toknow on CC for many years, they will not be convinced because they have the first principles wrong.

That is my opinion any.

Are you still in Kindergarten? No!

They keep arguing about what should have been settled long ago and moved upon in growth.
They never get to see what is next- and next- and next- in God's leading us into maturing in Christ.
It is a trap of the Devil. And, he is good at it.

.

 

[Genez]

Yeah you're in trouble for teaching a different gospel and another "jesus"

In the end it ain't gonna be nothing nice for those teaching such.


I'll go with the Holy Spirit over "hard work" any day.

Most putting in so called "hard work" are parroting false teachers as they are reading books and study material written by men on what they claim their favorite denomination teaches rather then studying God's Word allowing the Holy Spirit to be their Teacher.


Same is true for those following so called "reformed theology"

These people are well versed in false doctrine

How would you have Him judge me?

 

[JayWalker]

How would you have Him judge me?

Start accepting the whole counsel of God and find out.

 

[HeIsHere]

Are you still in Kindergarten? No!

They keep arguing about what should have been settled long ago and moved upon in growth.
They never get to see what is next- and next- and next- in God's leading us into maturing in Christ.
It is a trap of the Devil. And, he is good at it.

.

I think that is what I stated but put in a different way.

 

[homwardbound]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

A born again believer of God Father's gift to that one will not continue in sin over time in not ever giving up. Each learn new from bad experiences any one goes through

An ongoing, you better be good enough or else attitudes of the first born flesh and blood people!

God saves, man and woman can't. Only temporal here on earth can man and woman do that.

God is eternal, God loves us all So God sent Son to reconcile everyone one time through Son's willing death. All now since that death are reconciled as if never sinned per Col 1:21-22. then continue in this truth Col 1:23 see 2 Cor 5:17-21 as well.

God sent son to first reconcile everyone as if no one sinned ever, which the failure began at the first Adam. We have now the second Adam Jesus Christ the risen One who Won for us to be risen with him, presently and be new in love to all too, as. a response in thanksgiving and praise to God.

Not all people love all people. Yet God does! believe God Father, receive and be new in love and mercy to all too.

Therefore we have today, those that are sincere in belief to see new from God to work love and mercy through them to all. The same as Son did once for us all to receive this truth and be new in love and mercy to all too, in his risen Life given to each by Love and mercy from Father of Son. It is the Gift. Everyone is left with to believe sincerely or not.

There are many that use this grace for self gain. God knows each person personally who each are. Each person knows this too within themselves as well. Understand Evil comes as an Angel of light and is not good at all

I asked God for this gift, God gives it, knowing I will not use it for any self gain, standing in trust to God to get me through it all.
Next, will you, have you, and will you continue even if go through troubles here on earth too? Being made wise as a serpent, remaining harmless as a dove Matthew 10:16-20 Ask receive and see new over time in not ever giving up trust to God who does love you too!
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

We all have seen and we all know that evil resides in the first born person? Well maybe not all yet, yet all do whether anyone admits to that or not.

So, why does God give to some and not to others?

James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Time to turn to God and ask to be given real love and mercy to all too, the same as Son has done first. John 13:34
Real Love 1 Cor 13:4-7, then see 1Cor 13:13 God's love is forever, that is the camp I desire to be in, that Father God gives free. I am given this by God. All that do sincerely beleive God too. Then after having continued Faith belief it is done by Son to now enter freely. thankfully know this humbly so. No more pride or guilt to beset them anymore. God takes it all away through you. I cannot understand it, yet am thankful, as once anyone sees, stands in belief too, will see through too by God for them too.

Therefore, those that know and agree with Father and Son as Won for them are new, these come to understand more and more in this truth daily, and see they can't harm others anymore, An amazing grace takes effect, so deeply.

What about those still sinning behind the scenes?

God is at work in those that are sincere to know God truthfully in his love and mercy of Son for them to begin with.
If you are new, you will see this amazing gift to you too. God continues in mercy and love to all. People normally do not do that. People, normally define other people by their worst sin(s) they know of. That is not well for any else's soul is it?

What? if you, I or anyone else has a claim they are saved by God. My ? is are you growing into God's maturity of love and mercy of all? Is there any sin(s) left behind you now presently, agree to not do and have left them behind you? You will as grown up into maturity. Those in sincere belief see this truth happen through them and are amazed.
So, there will be some that will not make it, as there will be others that do that are sincere to know God over self and or anyone else!
God Father as said by Son Jesus, Father is the only one Good, reported in the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke

 

[JayWalker]

Not all people love all people. Yet God does!

But the calvinists claim God wants most people to go to hell and they claim Jesus only went to the cross for a few folks who just happen to be calvinists

How are you going to address these claims and what scripture references would you share with these calvinist type peoples?