Loss of salvation???

[Roger316]

And yet scripture teaches that God wants ALL to be saved and has provided a way for ALL to become born again.

I acknowledge that God wants all to be saved. But I wonder where it says that God provided a way for all to become born again? I don't think that is a Biblical idea.

It's false doctrine to claim Jesus only went to the cross for a few as the calvinists claim.

I am not a Calvinist and I didn't mention Limited Atonement. So do you want to try again?

He's talking about any and all who don not continue in the Lord's goodness.

No. I am right. The cultivated branches represent generations of Israelites, and the wild olive branches represent generations of Gentiles.

Consider his statement here: "You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Romans 11:19. Paul would never argue that God cut off an individual Jew from the Olive Tree in order to make room for a Gentile.

Paul is not picturing God running out of space on the Olive Tree and therefore snapping off individual Jewish believers to make room for Gentile believers. That would be a grotesque distortion of his argument — and Paul is far too careful a thinker to imply anything like that.

Jesus said we must endure IN Him until the end of our lives to be saved in the end. Not all abide in him after being born again.

Yes, he said something like that, but he said much more than that, as you know. He tells Nicodemus that those who are born again will see the kingdom of God. If this isn't an absolute statement, I don't know what is.

False teachers reject God's warnings like you have just rejected 2 Peter 2:20

I will accept your correction if you can prove your argument. Otherwise, saying something doesn't make it true. Try to interact with 2 Peter 2:20 the way Peter intended.

Start at the beginning of the chapter and notice Peter's main topic.

The Lord is clearly telling Christians here that if "they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning"

Where does Peter mention Christians? You might have guessed, but just to be clear, I am not accepting sloppy argumentation as I see here. If you can't prove or demonstrate your case without adding words or concepts to the text that aren't there, then why bother?

And some turn away from the Lord after having been born again and become reprobates

Do you have a particular verse or passage of scripture to support this?

We are under the law of Christ in the New Covenant, not the old testament law.

Of course, but Peter and Paul were under the Old Covenant before they were saved. That status serves as the basis for Paul's argument. He and Peter understood that they couldn't achieve justification while under the law, even though they weren't sinners, which is why they chose Christ.

 

[JayWalker]

What you've just stated will get you the wrath of those who say that's 'works'.

Their "wrath" is laughable!

Nobody is scared of the devil's crowd.

It would mean there were sins that did not become poured on his body as he hung on the Cross.

Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world, but His Word on the Cross is only applicable to those that get born again and turn from their sin.

Once we get born again... if one sins, they must confess and forsake their sin in order to have mercy because If a person does not forsake and confess their sins, then they are still on the hook for their sins see: Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9

This is due to the FACT that God's Kingdom is built upon seedtime and harvest

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

When we get born again our past sins are forgiving and we have a clean slate.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

But, going forward if we sin we must forsake and confess our sins to obtain mercy and be cleansed of those sins.
(see Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9)

 

[studier]

There is n grammar which can cause the cessation of eternal security.

That's quite a statement since God had His Word written using grammar, etc...

Besides, we're not talking about cessation of security - we're talking about the validity of views about security. Some may be talking about existence of security. but I'm not.

 

[JayWalker]

Here's one that most definitely DOES Speak Against the Eternal Security of the believer

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Notice that God is NOT the One deciding whether a man sows to the flesh or sows to the Spirit. The man is deciding.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

They be some God mockers amongst us! Watch out for the God mockers who claim we can sow to the flesh (sin) and not reap corruption and we can all live in sin and still go to Heaven

 

[studier]

Translation?

"Have you ever look into the damage control that has been devised? "

(Damage control to keep those who walk in their emotions feeling secure)

Translation was explained in the rest of what I wrote.

Explanation, men from Dallas or others who taught that the perfect tense states permanence were silently corrected and the argument went to doctrine instead because the perfect tense basis of their teachings was found to be wrong.

Translation: you were taught error and you're trying unsuccessfully to support error.

 

[Roger316]

Jehovah Witnesses have their own scholars. So does the RCC.

Means nothing more than the integrity of the one exegeting, for things can be twisted (and will be).

That's right, and I think that's a good point. Proper exegesis requires humility before the text and the willingness to see ourselves the way the Bible portrays us.

Even so, should we be discouraged by the presence of malpractice, or should we learn how to distinguish good exegesis from bad exegesis?

God knows our hearts. He leads accordingly to men to teach us. Be it for divine good, or deserved punishment.

That is the bottom line, isn't it? God knows our hearts. I agree with that. I try to remind myself that I can only know my own heart. I can't know someone else the way God knows them.

Here is the key to why we see what we are getting passed down the table.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

Self-deception leads to sharing deception.

Seems to me that Paul wanted Timothy to preach, even when great opposition was present. Wouldn't Paul say the same to us? or no?

 

[studier]

That is all interesting, and fodder for those who enjoy debating such things.....

But, let's deal with what is?

With all your knowledge of the Greek ?
Can a person who became regenerated, after believing in Jesus Christ, end up losing his salvation?

Forget the footnotes, please.
Just a simple, "yes."
Or, "no."

........

Asked and answered.

You've been debating such things. Now you're bowing out?

 

[Kroogz]

The extremes to which some will go to avoid discussing Scripture… Just who is it that does such a thing…?

I removed a boulder from my property today and it will never return.

I was saved today and I will never perish.

The extremes to which some will go to avoid the pure milk........... And common sense.

 

[JayWalker]

But I wonder where it says that God provided a way for all to become born again?

You may claim to not be a calvinist, but you have been influenced by calvinist doctrine and scripture twisting

If you knew your Bible better you would know the answer:

Romans 5:17,18
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

NOTE - Romans 5:17,18 is clearly telling us that the free gift came upon all men agreeing with Titus 2:11,12

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 John 2:2
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

2 Corinthians 5:19,20
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[studier]

Some people are bullies by nature.

They love to emotionally manipulate and frighten (and even terrorize) ignorant, naive believers, with what certain false doctrines affords them. They self-righteously see it as doing God's work. That way they have emotional satisfaction while having their bully-cake, too.

I believe the slot they should be placed in today would be labelled... "Pharisee."
Jesus had to deal with them.
And, so do we.

They just love our kind. Don't they?

Projection, again.

 

[studier]

I do not want to discuss what you have been itching to distort by throwing a sachet of confusion into the pot.

That would be Scripture you don't want to discuss.

Where this thread is now is why you want gone those of us who want to discuss Scripture.

This is your arena and it's not a good one.

 

[JayWalker]

No. I am right. The cultivated branches represent generations of Israelites, and the wild olive branches represent generations of Gentiles.

Consider his statement here: "You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Romans 11:19. Paul would never argue that God cut off an individual Jew from the Olive Tree in order to make room for a Gentile.

Paul is not picturing God running out of space on the Olive Tree and therefore snapping off individual Jewish believers to make room for Gentile believers. That would be a grotesque distortion of his argument — and Paul is far too careful a thinker to imply anything like that.

You forgot the Bible teaches gentiles believers have been grafted in to the same tree

As such anybody being a part of the tree can be cut off by the Father Who owns the tree
John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:5IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:4,5
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:8-10
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

HOW are we to abide in Christ, thru our own strength and ability???
NO... thru the Lord Who strengthens us!

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[studier]

I concur.

If the basics(milk) are ignored, it is IMPOSSIBLE to go to the meat.

We all will have 2 outcomes:

Loss of eternal life/forfeiting eternal life......
Or
You never really had eternal life.

Heb 5:12~~For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

1 John 5:13~~These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The loss of salvation crowd writes their things to make one think that they do not have eternal life.

Heb5 goes into Heb6 and eventually into Heb10 which are 2 of the most pronounced warning passages.

Heb5:12 is actually applying to those who can't discuss the meat of Scripture as is being evidenced extensively in this thread.

1John5:13 seems pretty clear, does it not? If you're believing, then you can know. Some are asking about those who stop believing.

 

[JayWalker]

He tells Nicodemus that those who are born again will see the kingdom of God. If this isn't an absolute statement, I don't know what is.

You failed to accept other things Jesus said such as in John 15 and what Jesus said across the New Testament thru the writings of the Apostles. That's all Jesus' Word as well.

You gotta accept the whole counsel of God and not take on the mindset of a cherry picker believing only a few verses and throwing the rest of what the Lord says in the trash which is exactly what the false teachers indoctrinate people to do.

saying something doesn't make it true.

God said it, so it's true. Those that ignore God's Word do so at their own peril.

Where does Peter mention Christians?

Who else has "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"???

Yeah, that would be Christians. Unless you think there's another path to salvation other than through Jesus Christ???

I am not accepting sloppy argumentation

You're not accepting the plain reading of the scripture which is your problem.

This is a common problem with those who have been indoctrinated by the false teachers so you are not alone.

Do you have a particular verse or passage of scripture to support this?

Have you not been reading what I've been posting?

He and Peter understood that they couldn't achieve justification while under the law, even though they weren't sinners

Wrong. Paul and Peter were both sinners before they got saved.

If they weren't then they had no need for Jesus at all.,

 

[Roger316]

It's an argument from silence when something's not stated in a verse under discussion and we say it is.

Does everything need to be expressed explicitly?

In the context of this thread, if we look at the concept of Jesus giving an entrance, then we're right back to whether or not one of His can turn back and exit - or cease following and lose, etc.

Yes, but don't forget that the discussion is based on an unproven assumption, that a person is saved the moment he believes. If salvation is transactional, then of course a person CAN fail to keep his end of the transaction.

We have been showing that God is saving those whom he set aside for that purpose. The Bible calls them "hagioi" and among the many markers we have to identify the "hagioi" is whether or not a person is born again. In this view, salvation is relational. Is someone a "son" of Abraham? Do they stand to inherit salvation?

I'd also point out that John in John1:12 begins this whole concept with Jesus giving men the right to become God's children. His writing proceeds and builds from there.

Is John saying that God gave them permission to become sons? Or is he saying something like, "“God granted them the status, authority, and legal standing to be counted as His sons”?

A lot of things to discuss. Trying to discuss Scripture with minds imbedded in presuppositions in not easy.

I agree.

 

[studier]

If anyone did lose his salvation?
It would mean that the Son failed to do His Father's will!

The Father's will is that His Son not force anybody out.

And then there's neuter vs. masculine grammar to discuss and that has already been discussed in this thread and that proof-texters like yourself like to ignore to keep the merry-go-round spinning.

What fun...

 

[studier]

Well of course!

Those reformed theology boys believe God got His doctrine from them

This is a Free-Grace Dispensationalist who doesn't like Reformed but likes OSAS so is not as non-reformed as they think they are.

 

[JayWalker]

The Father's will is that His Son not force anybody out.

The Son is not forcing anybody out.

Those that end up being rejected cause themselves to be rejected because they rejected the Lord and turned away from Him

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

That is written to Christians and it's based on on sowing and reaping where those that sow to the flesh (sin) reap corruption spoken of in Galatians 6:7,8

Those that claim we do not reap what we sow are mocking God.

God put provision in His Word for Christians to be cleansed IF, IF they sinned:

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[JayWalker]

This is a Free-Grace Dispensationalist who doesn't like Reformed but likes OSAS so is not as non-reformed as they think they are.

You mean greasy grace?

OSAS came out of reformed theology and was and is embraced by gnostics who claim they have some sort of "special revelation" that's beyond the Bible which does not actually teach OSAS

One must rejection portions of God's Word in order to embrace OSAS

 

[TruthDefender]

I do not want to discuss what you have been itching to distort by throwing a sachet of confusion into the pot.

You’ve pretty much taken that spot already!