It is not a presupposition.
Where does the grammar affirm that justification is revocable?
Loss of salvation???
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It is not a presupposition.
Where does the grammar affirm that justification is revocable?
I noticed your reference to the BDAG. Perhaps you didn't realize that the process is at least two steps removed from "what is explicitly stated in the text." Before we can determine what John "explicitly" said, we first need to consult a Greek lexicon and choose the meaning that best matches the context. Second, the lexicon itself is an interpretation—a collection of hundreds of judgments made when gathering the information.
I don't disagree with your approach. I do it all the time. But I am also aware of confirmation bias. Those who use Lexical tools should avoid the occupational hazard of searching for a definition that confirms our bias.
I also note that John is talking about birth and birthright in verse 13, which directly follows his statement in verse 12.
John 1:12-13
The NASB has this.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
the right to become children of God
The question is whether this is the best interpretation of the text. To start, we want to understand why John mentions birth at this point in his presentation. John contrasts those who were Jesus' relatives who did not receive him with those who did. The key difference between those who accepted him and those who didn't is their previous status: born of God's will.
Given that John brings up a comparison between natural birth and supernatural birth, we expect that his comparison bears weight on our understanding of "ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι". Although "freedom to choose to become children of God" is a plausible interpretation, it isn't likely, since the statement resides in a contrast between two groups: those who receive him and those who don't. This interpretation has John saying that the freedom to choose is granted only to those who receive him, which is unlikely. All men have the freedom to choose Jesus Christ.
If everyone has the freedom to receive Jesus Christ, then what did God give to those who actually did receive him? According to verse 13, those who received him were born of the will of God. They became God's children (sons) according to God's power.
come into a new state of being
You and your crew want something to boast over others with.
Others, whom you feel Jesus was stupid to die for them.
Your kind wants to frighten and torment weak believers who are not secure in their salvation.
Besides having a self-righteous cruel streak that was never dealt with?
(which is being revealed here).
The thought that a believer can lose his salvation?
Is a powerful tool in the hands of self-righteous bastards who want to browbeat weak souls into submission.
To think we can undo what God has proclaimed as "finished" is arrogance that competes even with the devil.
Those who claim God the Father does not save completely those whom He gives to the Son?
Refuse to see the thoroughness of God's omniscience in making sure those whom He gives the Son,
will not be taken away from Him later on .
In essence... those who tell us we can lose our salvation?
Are telling us that there is a new doctrine out there that they want to tell us about.
It is called?
The "Doctrine of the Incompetence of God to save Completely those whom He saves."
That when God saved you?
He already knew that you were really greater than He.
For you could do something that would undo what He did for you on the Cross.
John 6:37-39
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me, I will by no means cast out.
Someone's desire to leave God's will after salvation?
Will not cause God to be angry and drive you away. (cast out)
For? He is omnipresent!
How can He remove you from God wherever you may choose to go?
Even if you make your bed in Sheol He is there with you!
If a believer stubbornly persists in denying God's right to tell Him how to live?
He will break his legs (like a good shepherd does with a wayward sheep) and carry you over his shoulders over finish line (resurrection)
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up at the last day.
He will lose none of all the Father gives Him.
But, those who hate OSAS?
They don't care!
For they say.... "we are BETTER THAN THEM!"
PRIDE!
SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS!
So humble are those who believe we can lose our salvation and able to keep it.
And?
What about the young man in Corinth?
The one that was sleeping with his father's wife?
Paul neglected to teach about how we can lose our salvation!??
He would have plastered us with passages telling us he could lose his salvation!
So!
Those who think we can lose our salvation?
Enjoy your self-righteousness while you are keeping yourselves saved!
The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector." Luke 18:11
The Pharisees wanted Jesus crucified.
And, so will self-righteous believers whose self-esteem is based upon their own arrogance and pride.
Go ahead Mr. Exegete. Show us your stuff!
Make a way for the arrogant to stand secure in their self righteousness.
(and do it in a so reasonably sounding argument)
G'Day!
Permanently?
You mean they are never going to die? (sin onto death)
You mean that their resurrection body will be able to continue in their sin?
You just love yourself so much that you hate others?
Strange place to be.
I did already proved it with scripture.
Paul asks, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth?"
Romans 8:33
Unbroken Chain
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:29–30
I could go on and on.
But one thing you will never find a scripture which states God removes the legal status of justified.
Using grammar alone to state your view is like using a microscope to see the big picture.
Very true!!! ...... Coincidentally I was thinking the very same thing last night.
God is great.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
Yes, through faith in Him we were justified, and we access through faith.
What happens if we no longer have faith? We are no longer justified, since it takes faith to be justified, and we no longer have access.
Unlike you, I believe I can be wrong. I believe that my understanding of scripture can be wrong.
I believe that I cannot know my own heart. (Jeremiah 17:9)
I assume the above does not apply to you.
What you are missing is that we are human and are easily misinformed or led astray.
Except you, of course.
I know what I believe but am aware that I can be wrong. Can you say the same?
Does the term "high horse" mean anything to you.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.
If we claim to have been justified but don't end up glorified then we have been deceived and were never justified. I did a Bible search on "no longer" justified but did not find it.
If we claim to have been justified but don't end up glorified then we have been deceived and were never justified. I did a Bible search on "no longer" justified but did not find it.
The methodology I was taught is referred to as the ICE method of study. They stand for Isagogics, Categorical, and Exegetical. It’s an approach that uses several angles in order to get a fuller view of a particular topic.
Okay, let's talk about these passages and see whether they say, suggest or imply that God has presented everyone with an opportunity to be saved.It means God has provided opportunity for all to be saved and this answers your original question when
These passages show that God has provided opportunity for all to be saved and this answers your original question when you claimed you did know know where God's Word says he has provided opportunity for all to be saved
Glad we got that all cleared up. Please let me know if you need further assistance.
Romans 5:17-18
Paul contrasts Adam with Jesus Christ. Through Adam came death to all men and through Jesus Christ life came to all men.
I must admit, I thought we would see opportunity here in this passage, but I was wrong. Paul doesn't list a set of circumstances by which it is possible for us to do something. It seems to me that the entire chapter is about what God has done.
Titus 2:11-12
Paul's call to action is based on what God had previously done. He argues that in light of the grace that God has granted to all men, we ought to respect that grace and act accordingly. In other words, we have an opportunity to treat others with grace, as God has treated us. Paul isn't talking about salvation here.
1 John 2:1-2
Here, John teaches his readers that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the world. His call to action, "that you may not sin," establishes the basis for his contrast between "those who know him" and "those who don't." He is comparing the status of two groups whose condition has already been established: knowing him, not knowing him. At this point in his letter, John seems uninterested in growth, success, or change, which might explain the absence of language about opportunity.
2 Peter 3:8-9
Here, the Apostle uses the second-person plural "you" to address his audience pastorally. They are facing doubters and mockers who are discouraged by the delay of Jesus Christ. Peter's statement should be understood in that context. He reminds his audience that God is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish. The antecedent of the pronoun "any" is "you," which refers to Peter's audience.
His call to action isn't to believe and be saved; it's to "be in holy conduct and godliness..."
"be in holy conduct and godliness . . ."
2 Corinthians 5:19-20
Here, Paul asserts that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. His call to action is "so be reconciled to God." One could argue that Paul is giving his readers the opportunity to be saved. But he doesn't give them a set of circumstances that makes it possible for them to achieve salvation.
Acts 17:30
Here is a clear call for all men to repent. The repentance is the opening moment when salvation becomes evident. The goal is to avoid condemnation at the resurrection of the dead. All men have an opportunity to repent and be saved.
John 12:32
I agree with @studier who argued that to be "drawn" in this context means "to be taught." If he is right, and I think he is, after the Crucifixion and the Ascension, the entire world heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and had an opportunity to learn what Jesus did and taught. This is consistent with John's teaching that Jesus is the light of the world, which he still is. One could argue that Jesus gave everyone an opportunity to be saved, but this would be an oversimplification.
Hebrews 2:9-10
Verse 9 should be interpreted in light of verse 10. We must get used to the fact that the Greek neuter plural doesn't mean "every" in a general way; it means "every member of a particular group." The author usually specifies the group in view and our passage is no different. Jesus died on behalf of "τὰ πάντα", which Paul defines as "many sons." All of the sons will be brought to glory.
John 3:16
God gave the death of Jesus to the world, that is true. But only those who believe on Jesus will receive eternal life. That qualification narrows down the opportunity to a select group. And the passage contains no call to action. It doesn't say, "therefore, believe in Jesus Christ."
May he bless you and keep you.
If we claim to be justified or glorified and end up neither then we were deceived.
If we claim to be justified or glorified and end up correct then we were simply lucky.
A broken clock is correct twice a day.
No one knows their fate.
Its not about luck but faith. (Romans 3:24-26; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9)
Romans 8:16 - The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Primarily the written Word, but also the history of the peoples and culture to when it was written.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
They are never going to die?? I think there is a miscommunication here. We all die.
There is a sin leading to death! I’m pretty sure this is loss of faith in Him.
Where is these verses does it provide personal knowledge of our individual fate?
IOW, how do you know the "spirit" in Romans 8:16 is your "spirit"?
You are either saved or not. Proclaiming one or the other without some kind of empirical evidence is rather bias.