Loss of salvation???

[JayWalker]

Go find your kitty litter and drop your post there.

The kitty is busy burying all your posts right now so he has a waiting list

 

[Roger316]

Understood. Yet you'd agree that it is determinism and thus understand why others reject the entire model, correct?

It's hard to say why people reject it. I dare not speculate.

They might reject Dr. Crabtree's main premises:

• God creates everything, including our free-will choices.
• God is more real than the reality he created.

As a side note, many Christians who believe that human freedom is inviolable will talk about the "sin nature" as if human nature causes sin. But if my nature is causing me to sin (I couldn't do otherwise), then how am I being held responsible?

 

[Genez]

Ephesians 2:5 is too often overlooked. This is regeneration which leads to all that follows.

That was just explaining what he did in our salvation.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, ​

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-​

it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:4-5​

God's grace suppressed our sin nature (just as it should now if we are maturing in Christ) so that our soul could think freely and decide concerning what was being presented to us in God's drawing.
Evil souls will reject God's drawing them.
Evil is not sin. Evil is an arrogance that man is free to choose to walk in.
Satan was created sinless and CHOSE to reject God.
That process of rejecting God came from a creature not created to be sinful.
That process is called 'evil.' Not sin.

We sin because we are born with a sin nature.
Adam chose to eat the fruit sans a sin nature.
He suddenly gained knowledge of what evil is.
As a result of his fall, his body took on a fallen nature.

We need to get the sequence right...

 

[Genez]

The kitty is busy burying all your posts right now so he has a waiting list

Hey.... communicating with you makes me feel like a little kid, again.

(And, think like one too)

 

[Roger316]

Now, tell the rest of the story as brother Paul Harvey used to say!

Mankind is responsible before God for his own actions and man can in fact cause himself to be disqualified if he does not submit himself to the Lord continually abiding IN Christ:

Of course. But we are talking about a subset of believers who will continue to abide in Christ and why they do. We believe the Bible has an answer as to why someone will persevere and not fall away.

 

[TruthDefender]

His return is at the end of the Tribulation to set up His kingdom on earth.

Go find your kitty litter and drop your post there.

You sound like a JW!? There is nothing in Scripture that states when He returns that He will be setting up His kingdom on earth. He will be separating the goats from the sheep, and then burning up all of creation. The sheep will go to heaven for eternity, and the goats to the lake of eternal fire.

 

[Genez]

You sound like a JW!? There is nothing in Scripture that states when He returns that He will be setting up His kingdom on earth. He will be separating the goats from the sheep, and then burning up all of creation. The sheep will go to heaven for eternity, and the goats to the lake of eternal fire.

Have nice day Kitty.

 

[Roger316]

Ephesians 2:5 is too often overlooked. This is regeneration which leads to all that follows.

I don't think Paul is talking about regeneration in Ephesians 2:5, In this context the terms "dead" and "alive" indicate one's status with respect to the final judgment. When Paul contrasts dead and alive in Ephesians 2, he’s describing our forensic (i.e., courtroom) status before God as it will be revealed at the final judgment.

Ephesians 2:7-8
In order to understand verse 8, one must read it in light of verse 7 where the "Grace" in view is granted "in the age to come."

 

[TruthDefender]

Why are you so keen to "prove" that a Christian can lose their salvation? Is there some perverse satisfaction that you get in trying to undermine someone's faith? It is the exact opposite of what believers should be doing.

"And we urge you, brothers, to admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, and be patient with everyone."
(1 Thessalonians 5:14)

Are you afraid for yourself? It's a known psychological problem called projection.

You still do not know what it means to be born again. Do you not know that it is by an imperishable seed? Tell me how the imperishable can die? Tell me what part of eternal can die? If God causes us to be new creations, who can reverse what God has done? All who are born again have the spirit of adoption, Romans 8: 15-17

"For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption to sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Romans 8: 9-11
"You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you."

My Bible tells me that I am the righteousness of God in Christ.
"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

Strange mentality!?! Have you never heard strong preaching warning us that it is possible to lose salvation, if we turn our backs/ walk away from God? Many of the apostles have warned us of such things. People need to be aware that it can happen! We need to run the race holding on to Him, His word; living His word daily.

 

[JayWalker]

Of course. But we are talking about a subset of believers who will continue to abide in Christ and why they do. We believe the Bible has an answer as to why someone will persevere and not fall away.

If that answer is so called irresistible grace than that's false doctrine

Hey.... communicating with you makes me feel like a little kid, again.

Still being in diaper is what is causing that.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears

 

[rogerg]

Faith is the root of salvation

Isn't Christ the root of salvation?

 

[Genez]

Strange mentality!?! Have you never heard strong preaching warning us that it is possible to lose salvation, if we turn our backs/ walk away from God? Many of the apostles have warned us of such things. People need to be aware that it can happen! We need to run the race holding on to Him, His word; living His word daily.

Don't look at me...

Even God says you are.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid.​

​

Proverbs 12:1​

 

[JayWalker]

Isn't Christ the root of salvation?

It takes faith to have access to Jesus

 

[rogerg]

I don't think Paul is talking about regeneration in Ephesians 2:5, In this context the terms "dead" and "alive" indicate one's status with respect to the final judgment.

Isn't that death, the death of Eph 2, the death of Adam which death passed to all men, and is why we need to be born-again by God in this life?

[1Co 15:21-22 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[rogerg]

It takes faith to have access to Jesus

It takes Jesus to have access to faith

 

[Genez]

Isn't Christ the root of salvation?

He is the foundation of our salvation.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.​

​

1 Corinthians 3:11​

​

And, He is the Vine and we are the branches.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much ​

fruit; apart from me, you can do nothing." John 15:5​

​

Note! Jesus did not say... Apart from me, you will lose your salvation. Just unable to bear fruit.​

 

[studier]

It's hard to say why people reject it. I dare not speculate.

They might reject Dr. Crabtree's main premises:

• God creates everything, including our free-will choices.
• God is more real than the reality he created.

As a side note, many Christians who believe that human freedom is inviolable will talk about the "sin nature" as if human nature causes sin. But if my nature is causing me to sin (I couldn't do otherwise), then how am I being held responsible?

I probably should have said, "Understood. Yet you'd agree that it is determinism and thus understand why that others reject the entire model, correct?"

For me, I know there is disagreement. I'm looking at the why as much as I can get to it. It's rarely possible here as I think is clearly seen.

Nevertheless, this is why I ask for explanations of and from Scripture.

S-N: Inclination and influence - not causal necessity. We are responsible because we choose to consent.

 

[Genez]

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears

Can you endure sound doctrine?

 

[studier]

Strange mentality!?! Have you never heard strong preaching warning us that it is possible to lose salvation, if we turn our backs/ walk away from God? Many of the apostles have warned us of such things. People need to be aware that it can happen! We need to run the race holding on to Him, His word; living His word daily.

Many today have not heard that preaching other than to be told it's wrong.

 

[studier]

Don't look at me...

Even God says you are.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid.​

​

Proverbs 12:1​

Again, the irony.