Loss of salvation???

[JayWalker]

Can you endure sound doctrine?

I've been trying to give you some sound doctrine but you keep turning your receiver off.

 

[rogerg]

He is the foundation of our salvation.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.​

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1 Corinthians 3:11​

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And, He is the Vine and we are the branches.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much ​

fruit; apart from me, you can do nothing." John 15:5​

​

Note! Jesus did not say... Apart from me, you will lose your salvation. Just unable to bear fruit.​

Yes, He is the foundation of the gospel but also its root:

[Isa 53:1-5 KJV]
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[Cameron143]

That was just explaining what he did in our salvation.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, ​

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-​

it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:4-5​

God's grace suppressed our sin nature (just as it should now if we are maturing in Christ) so that our soul could think freely and decide concerning what was being presented to us in God's drawing.
Evil souls will reject God's drawing them.
Evil is not sin. Evil is an arrogance that man is free to choose to walk in.
Satan was created sinless and CHOSE to reject God.
That process of rejecting God came from a creature not created to be sinful.
That process is called 'evil.' Not sin.

We sin because we are born with a sin nature.
Adam chose to eat the fruit sans a sin nature.
He suddenly gained knowledge of what evil is.
As a result of his fall, his body took on a fallen nature.

We need to get the sequence right...

God's grace did more than just suppress our sin nature. It made us alive and it placed us in Christ while we were yet in our sins. This is prior to belief and is what made salvation by faith possible.

 

[JayWalker]

God's grace did more than just suppress our sin nature. It made us alive and it placed us in Christ while we were yet in our sins. This is prior to belief and is what made salvation by faith possible.

And for those that get born again and continue in their sin, or backslide going back to their sin, they have rejected the Lord walking after the flesh and will not be in attendance at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Now the devil teaches through most preachers and churches now that one can live in sin and still be saved, but the devil lied and those with itching ears lap it up.

 

[mailmandan]

But isn't being born again a qualitatively distinct concept from faith?

Being "born again" is distinct from faith, acting as the result or inner transformation produced by faith. While faith is the act of trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, being born again is the spiritual rebirth or regeneration by the Holy Spirit that results from faith.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't think Paul is talking about regeneration in Ephesians 2:5, In this context the terms "dead" and "alive" indicate one's status with respect to the final judgment. When Paul contrasts dead and alive in Ephesians 2, he’s describing our forensic (i.e., courtroom) status before God as it will be revealed at the final judgment.

Ephesians 2:7-8
In order to understand verse 8, one must read it in light of verse 7 where the "Grace" in view is granted "in the age to come."

I couldn't disagree more with that understanding. He is leading up to salvation by grace through faith. And he's showing that we are made alive by juxtaposing life with the death we were under...we were dead, we were being dominated by Satan, and we were doomed. And from that reality, we were made alive and placed in Christ and came to faith.

 

[TruthDefender]

It's hard to say why people reject it. I dare not speculate.

They might reject Dr. Crabtree's main premises:

• God creates everything, including our free-will choices.
• God is more real than the reality he created.

As a side note, many Christians who believe that human freedom is inviolable will talk about the "sin nature" as if human nature causes sin. But if my nature is causing me to sin (I couldn't do otherwise), then how am I being held responsible?

If we are not responsible for what we do, then we can do whatever and still go to heaven. Your comment makes no sense.

 

[mailmandan]

Now, tell the rest of the story as brother Paul Harvey used to say!

Mankind is responsible before God for his own actions and man can in fact cause himself to be disqualified if he does not submit himself to the Lord continually abiding IN Christ:

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the
truth:

John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall
not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in
darkness.

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my Word, he shall never see death.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold (take possession) on eternal life, whereunto thou art
also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

So, "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door? How does that line up with (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)? Try not to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

And for those that get born again and continue in their sin, or backslide going back to their sin, they have rejected the Lord walking after the flesh and will not be in attendance at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Now the devil teaches through most preachers and churches now that one can live in sin and still be saved, but the devil lied and those with itching ears lap it up.

How does one judicially get out of Christ once they are in?

 

[mailmandan]

Isn't Christ the root of salvation?

Our faith must be rooted in Christ. He is the object of our faith. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Our faith must be rooted in Christ. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

If our faith is the means of our salvation, and Christ the instrument by which we receive salvation, then we would be our own savior with Christ acting only as an unconditional function to the fulfilling our desire for salvation, and not as THE Savior. IOW, were that true, it would place man above Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

If our faith is the means of our salvation, and Christ the instrument by which we receive salvation, then we would be our own savior with Christ acting only as an unconditional function to the fulfilling our desire for salvation, and not as THE Savior. IOW, were that true, it would place man above Christ.

That is backwards. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

 

[Roger316]

If that answer is so called irresistible grace than that's false doctrine

First of all, I am not a Calvinist; Second of all, I never mentioned Irresistible Grace. Finally, try to be more specific in your objections. Saying that something is false doctrine doesn't make it false. Either you have reasons or you don't.

 

[rogerg]

That is backwards. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

Hmmm. It doesn't appear so to me. Were it up to us to have faith to become saved, and should we acquire faith of ourselves, then according to you we must become saved, and thereby, we would save ourselves as Christ would then be obliged to save us. Conversely, should we not acquire faith, then regardless of Christ, we could not become saved, therefore, whether we become saved or not, would depend solely upon us thereby eliminating Christ as THE Savior in all ways except as a function.

 

[JayWalker]

How does one judicially get out of Christ once they are in?

Read the warnings God gives in the New Testament.

Those that ignore God's warnings do so at their own peril.

Our faith must be rooted in Christ. He is the object of our faith. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the gift the Lord gives that enables man to be saved - "faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

No faith = no saving grace

Romans 14:23
everything that does not come from faith is sin

Those that turn away from walking in faith forfiet their salvation unless they repent and ask for forgivness and go back to walking with the Lord in faith once again.

Sadly some have been deceived by the devil's teachings to believe a person can live in sin and still be saved. This is what the ear ticklers teach these days and the people lap it up because they enjoy having some sin in their life.

Saying that something is false doctrine doesn't make it false. Either you have reasons or you don't.

It's false doctrine if it does no agree with the Doctrine of Christ

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Those not abiding in the Doctrine of Christ do so at their own peril.

 

[studier]

So, "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door? How does that line up with (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)? Try not to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.

Usual assertions.

Typical descriptive vs. prescriptive escape mechanism when dealing with commands and conditional clauses or anything that conflicts with the 'works' hypersensitivity that even have category names...

 

[Roger316]

Isn't that death, the death of Eph 2, the death of Adam which death passed to all men, and is why we need to be born-again by God in this life?

[1Co 15:21-22 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If I understand what you mean, then yes. This was illustrated metaphorically when Adam and Eve were cut off from the tree of life. In that sense they were "dead", no longer to live again. But through Jesus Christ we have access to the tree of live and therefore, in him, we will live again.

 

[Roger316]

I probably should have said, "Understood. Yet you'd agree that it is determinism and thus understand why that others reject the entire model, correct?"

For me, I know there is disagreement. I'm looking at the why as much as I can get to it. It's rarely possible here as I think is clearly seen.

Nevertheless, this is why I ask for explanations of and from Scripture.

S-N: Inclination and influence - not causal necessity. We are responsible because we choose to consent.

I sat down to write a long post to give a philosophical explanation but I tossed it out. I'm with you; I would prefer to talk about the scriptures. And honestly, to answer your question, Yes, I can see it from the other perspective.

 

[mailmandan]

Hmmm. It doesn't appear so to me. Were it up to us to have faith to become saved, and should we acquire faith of ourselves, then according to you we must become saved, and thereby, we would save ourselves as Christ would then be obliged to save us. Conversely, should we not acquire faith, then regardless of Christ, we could not become saved, therefore, whether we become saved or not, would depend solely upon us thereby eliminating Christ as THE Savior in all ways except as a function.

Now although it is our responsibility to choose to believe/place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Jesus Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision.

Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation all by ourselves.

The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe/place faith in Christ, we must choose to believe/place faith in Him. The impulse to saving belief/faith in Christ comes from the Father.

 

[rogerg]

If I understand what you mean, then yes. This was illustrated metaphorically when Adam and Eve were cut off from the tree of life. In that sense they were "dead", no longer to live again. But through Jesus Christ we have access to the tree of live and therefore, in him, we will live again.

I would say the "dead" of Adam is spiritually dead, otherwise, we wouldn't need to be made spiritually alive as-in being born-again.
Would you consider being born-again as metaphorical or spiritual?