Searching For Truth Seekers!

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GWH said:
For failing to get my joke, which may be my fault for it falling flat, but not in the sinful sense.
Anyway, my point was that we should not be anal by idolizing the KJV or any version of Scripture
(which is called Bibliolatry), because the Holy Spirit/God's Word is the One who should be worshipped.
Click to expand...
All joking aside; I totally missed it.

I see what you’re saying, but you also could be more careful with your selection of words. I’m doubtful whether you would use that term in discussing things with Jesus, so why use it at all?? It’s pretty much considered gutter language.

Anyway, many decades ago, I did a personal study on which versions are more accurate. You would be surprised!! It would seem Satan had a field day with many versions, due to the altered language, in deleting verses or deleting portions of verses, rephrasing verses that changes meanings. Wow!! There were people who worked on some of those versions that later admitted to altering verses on their deathbed.

The versions that are the most altered seem to have the most lax English language. One of the more popular versions is the NIV which isn’t the best either. I personally don’t like the KJV, because of the old English, which is why I only use the NKJV.
 
GWH said:
Thanks for your insightful post.
Yes, only God knows who is a truthseeker/Christian, but we test all things the best we can.
Each person has their own life experiences and dogma, but I believe there is only One Truth, and that anyone can learn enough of it to be saved.

The challenge is to make a composite picture from the individual descriptions of the elephant.
Learning may confirm previous beliefs or invalidate them.

Yes, those seeking only confirmation and not open to amending wrong beliefs are not truthseekers.
If truth is one, it does not matter where we start, but ideally we should compare all sources.
I have studied many beliefs, and none compete with the 66 book Bible IMO.

Yes, we must pray to be free enough from what we were taught as a child to discern true understanding of Scripture.
Even if Scripture is inerrant, we are not infallible, so there remains the need for humbly harmonizing disparate teachings.
I vote for the inspiration of the meta-narrative or big picture of God's plan of salvation, and those who prefer divine dictation quietly say that means of the original writings, which we do not have.

Yes, a main need for those who value the Bible is to harmonize the information, even if that was not the original intent of the writers.
It is the intent of the One who inspired the authors that means something.
Yes, the history is meaningful as the contextual part of the message.

Yes, many seekers do not realize that the process resulting in the extant Bible is comparable to making sausage, but the result resonates with true seekers. People have not changed much over the millenia, so the meaning of terms is not greatly different, although certainly we should not make meanings morally opposite (as Marxists do). In order to nullify nihilism we must assume God guided the river of history to produce the Gospel, although He may allow the fish to swim as they wish. We must have faith in Him.

Even though Joseph Smith was prompted by the proliferation of Protestant denominations in America to found one which was worse than most, the solution to disunity must involve agreement on a creed expressing the essence of the Gospel, influenced by desire for spiritual unity. Having different sects is okay as long as some are not heretical cults.

Yes, truthseekers may kick against the goads of GW at first, but like Paul they will yield beloved dogmas and embrace the HS.
Yes, being convicted by new truth might cause uncomfortable feelings of guilt for being wrong, but how much untruth are we willing to tolerate?

Harmonizing science with the bible is not only possible but mandatory. Part of the way to do that is by realizing some truth is physical and other truth is spiritual or ultimate, and both are true.
Click to expand...
I really like your response. It illuminates our conflicting needs for harmony, accuracy and insight. The bible is an anthology, a library, forged in fire, contention, debate and persecution. The Bible is too big an elephant (to use your analogy) for most to be willing to deal with. I have been a devoted bible reader and committed student for the past 68 yrs. The rapid evolution in the physical sciences including Palaeography, Epigraphy, archeology, Chemistry (Biomolecular Archaeology), Biology (Bioarchaeology & Environmental Archaeology), Paleoethnobotany, Petrography and Paleoclimatology are just a few of the external resources that illuminate especially the long arch of time covered in the Hebrew Bible. If we believe the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament were written as a voice in real history, then there is a vast amount of data accumulating using the best sciences available to us to illuminate the historical settings contained in the Bible. In some cases the scientific data confront the texts and in others it confirm the texts. In many cases the Hebrew Bible does not record the most earth shaking events of their history but chooses rather to create a validation for their national identity.

The Hebrew Bible does not pretend to be a historical record. It is a theological record where the import is not historical accuracy but theological revelation. It is essentially a collection of spiritual insights by a very small group surrounding their kings over a long period of history in which theology dominates history. Israel, like its preceding civilizations all must claim legitimacy via legends of how their gods came to give them the right to the land they inhabit. Canaanite and Hebrew cultures demonstrate the same needs.

I have spent the last 10 years wrestling with the Hebrew Bible. It has been a rewarding endeavor. Here the blend of history, science and the scriptures provides a sieve through which both science & scripture illuminate a more profound sense of truth.

Over the last few years I have also been devoted to understanding the history of Christianity. The metaphor is not looking at how the sausage is made. The metaphor is watching how gold is refined. Perhaps another metaphor is watching a 4 act play with world-class real people covering over 2,000 years.
 
TruthDefender said:
This is way too much to read on this platform. The more you write, the more opinions ensnare you. Zero Scripture!
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Truthdefender,
I can see from your moniker that you have a corpus of truth you feel the need to defend. Go for it. The discussion is not about a particular scripture but about how we approach all scripture including those you defend and those you reject. The question is how should we approach learning from the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. Do we feel more vindicated when we defend our theological position with a blizzard of unrelated poached scriptural verses dictated by our catechism-like devotion to our dogmas?

It is not unlike giving a child a big box of legos and telling them to create a coherent statement about truth. That is precisely how many people approach the study of the scriptures. On our own, we feel clueless so we take the "perfect blueprint" handed down to us by our chosen religious heritage and are thus able to "defend" it against all other 450,000 "perfect blueprints" that fuel those considered heretics.

As you suggest nothing I write is valid because I have not used "scriptures," let me suggest that there are three scriptures that provide truth that most Christians ignore, obfuscate and/or fear.
1. Your claim to have faith may be false or worse yet, useless.
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give away everything I own, and if I give over my body in order to boast, but do not have love, I receive no benefit.
4Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up. 5It is not rude, it is not self-serving, it is not easily angered or resentful. 6It is not glad about injustice, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 10but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

2. Jesus told us we can judge if a person is a legitimate Christ follower by the fruit they display.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also behave in accordance with the Spirit.

3. We have evolved intricate theologies about the criteria for the eternal judgement we face. Most of it gives a a pass on doing anything...."only believe and you will be saved." "Just make a decision for Christ....Just make room for Jesus in your heart.."
Read for yourself Jesus speech contained in the 25th chapter of Matthew.

Then let's discuss truth.
 
biblestudent78 said:
I really like your response. It illuminates our conflicting needs for harmony, accuracy and insight. The bible is an anthology, a library, forged in fire, contention, debate and persecution. The Bible is too big an elephant (to use your analogy) for most to be willing to deal with. I have been a devoted bible reader and committed student for the past 68 yrs. The rapid evolution in the physical sciences including Palaeography, Epigraphy, archeology, Chemistry (Biomolecular Archaeology), Biology (Bioarchaeology & Environmental Archaeology), Paleoethnobotany, Petrography and Paleoclimatology are just a few of the external resources that illuminate especially the long arch of time covered in the Hebrew Bible. If we believe the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament were written as a voice in real history, then there is a vast amount of data accumulating using the best sciences available to us to illuminate the historical settings contained in the Bible. In some cases the scientific data confront the texts and in others it confirm the texts. In many cases the Hebrew Bible does not record the most earth shaking events of their history but chooses rather to create a validation for their national identity.

The Hebrew Bible does not pretend to be a historical record. It is a theological record where the import is not historical accuracy but theological revelation. It is essentially a collection of spiritual insights by a very small group surrounding their kings over a long period of history in which theology dominates history. Israel, like its preceding civilizations all must claim legitimacy via legends of how their gods came to give them the right to the land they inhabit. Canaanite and Hebrew cultures demonstrate the same needs.

I have spent the last 10 years wrestling with the Hebrew Bible. It has been a rewarding endeavor. Here the blend of history, science and the scriptures provides a sieve through which both science & scripture illuminate a more profound sense of truth.

Over the last few years I have also been devoted to understanding the history of Christianity. The metaphor is not looking at how the sausage is made. The metaphor is watching how gold is refined. Perhaps another metaphor is watching a 4 act play with world-class real people covering over 2,000 years.
Click to expand...
I disagree with your statements. It sounds like you put more relevance in the sciences than in God’s written word!

The Bible is the most accurate book ever written through man, meaning it’s God breathed/ inspired/ written by our Creator through men chosen by God Himself.

God only gave ONE Creed/ Dogma. Man made the rest.
 
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TruthDefender said:
All joking aside; I totally missed it.

I see what you’re saying, but you also could be more careful with your selection of words. I’m doubtful whether you would use that term in discussing things with Jesus, so why use it at all?? It’s pretty much considered gutter language.

Anyway, many decades ago, I did a personal study on which versions are more accurate. You would be surprised!! It would seem Satan had a field day with many versions, due to the altered language, in deleting verses or deleting portions of verses, rephrasing verses that changes meanings. Wow!! There were people who worked on some of those versions that later admitted to altering verses on their deathbed.

The versions that are the most altered seem to have the most lax English language. One of the more popular versions is the NIV which isn’t the best either. I personally don’t like the KJV, because of the old English, which is why I only use the NKJV.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you now get the joke, but "anal" is not gutter language. It is a Freudian concept describing a person obsessed with order, perfectionism, control, and cleanliness--or in this case, the KJV. It further characterizes adults who are meticulous, rigid, and often anxious. I have read a handful of Bible versions without finding any critical problems as long as debatable passages are footnoted,
such as the reason the end of Mark is considered problematic by many.

BTW, IMO the terms "anal" and "oral" need to be used more frequently in describing the perversity of homosexuality so people will be more appalled.
 
GWH said:
I'm glad you now get the joke, but "anal" is not gutter language. It is a Freudian concept describing a person obsessed with order, perfectionism, control, and cleanliness--or in this case, the KJV. It further characterizes adults who are meticulous, rigid, and often anxious. I have read a handful of Bible versions without finding any critical problems as long as debatable passages are footnoted,
such as the reason the end of Mark is considered problematic by many.

BTW, IMO the terms "anal" and "oral" need to be used more frequently in describing the perversity of homosexuality so people will be more appalled.
Click to expand...
Well, let me be more specific:

1-I’m a woman, for one thing, and I don’t care for the Freudian gutter talk, or of anything coming out of the back end of a rear hind quarter. If you get my drift!? There was nothing “jokianistic” about your so called joke. Lol

2-You can label anything and everything you want, till you turn blue, I don’t give a hoot! It means nothing!!

3-There is nothing wrong with PEOPLE who are logical, organized/ meticulous in nature!! By simply complaining about these qualities in other people tells me something about you, that you’re most likely just the opposite!! lol

4-Anxious I’m not!!

5-Your opinions about the Bible versions are just that.

6-Homosexuality is not even a topic in this thread!(?) Idk why you even mentioned it!?
At least you’re correct in that it’s disgusting, but no more than any other sin, I guess!!
 
TruthDefender said:
I disagree with your statements. It sounds like you put more relevance in the sciences than in God’s written word!

The Bible is the most accurate book ever written through man, meaning it’s God breathed/ inspired/ written by our Creator through men chosen by God Himself.

God only gave ONE Creed/ Dogma. Man made the rest.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your dogma as it relates to what you believe about the Bible. I have no interest in discussing dogma. As to science, why would you just assume there is a conflict between the physical sciences and your interpretation of what constitutes "God's Word?" Exactly what is the bible accurate about? Is the earth 4004 yrs old? Did God stop the rotation of the earth so someone could win a battle? Do you know that a book not in your bible is quoted in your New Testament? Is is your perception that the science in the bible operates in the same way science operates today?

If God gave only One Dogma then why are there 44,599 christian creeds plus yours? If God gave only one, which of the 45,000 is the one God gave?
 
biblestudent78 said:
I appreciate your dogma as it relates to what you believe about the Bible. I have no interest in discussing dogma. As to science, why would you just assume there is a conflict between the physical sciences and your interpretation of what constitutes "God's Word?" Exactly what is the bible accurate about? Is the earth 4004 yrs old? Did God stop the rotation of the earth so someone could win a battle? Do you know that a book not in your bible is quoted in your New Testament? Is is your perception that the science in the bible operates in the same way science operates today?

If God gave only One Dogma then why are there 44,599 christian creeds plus yours? If God gave only one, which of the 45,000 is the one God gave?
Click to expand...
I follow the NT pattern. One creed through Christ.
 
biblestudent78 said:
I appreciate your dogma as it relates to what you believe about the Bible. I have no interest in discussing dogma. As to science, why would you just assume there is a conflict between the physical sciences and your interpretation of what constitutes "God's Word?" Exactly what is the bible accurate about? Is the earth 4004 yrs old? Did God stop the rotation of the earth so someone could win a battle? Do you know that a book not in your bible is quoted in your New Testament? Is is your perception that the science in the bible operates in the same way science operates today?

If God gave only One Dogma then why are there 44,599 christian creeds plus yours? If God gave only one, which of the 45,000 is the one God gave?
Click to expand...
I follow the NT pattern. One creed through Christ. The OT Law was our Tutor to bring us to Christ.

The so called 44599 supposed creeds are man made. If you have never read the verse that states that there is only ONE creed that God made through Christ and the apostles, then I would suggest reading the NC till you hit that verse.

The physical sciences have a lot of theories, very few, if any, say that all was created by God. So yes, I have a big problem with their lies!
 
God told us to make everything according to the pattern. The pattern is the NC. He told us this in the OT as well as in the NT. Whatever the apostles and Christ laid down, this is what we follow.
 
TruthDefender said:
Well, let me be more specific:

1-I’m a woman, for one thing, and I don’t care for the Freudian gutter talk, or of anything coming out of the back end of a rear hind quarter. If you get my drift!? There was nothing “jokianistic” about your so called joke. Lol

2-You can label anything and everything you want, till you turn blue, I don’t give a hoot! It means nothing!!

3-There is nothing wrong with PEOPLE who are logical, organized/ meticulous in nature!! By simply complaining about these qualities in other people tells me something about you, that you’re most likely just the opposite!! lol

4-Anxious I’m not!!

5-Your opinions about the Bible versions are just that.

6-Homosexuality is not even a topic in this thread!(?) Idk why you even mentioned it!?
At least you’re correct in that it’s disgusting, but no more than any other sin, I guess!!
Click to expand...

I understand you do not like for the word "anal" to refer to a personality type, because you cannot help but associate it with gutter talk. Remind me to share my sermon on cursing sometime.

If you find reference to anything coming out of the rear end objectionable, then you should understand why using that term to describe inappropriate things going into the rear end would help people see that homosexuality is not a "viable alternative lifestyle".

I did not say there is anything wrong with being logical and organized, but being rigid and anxious are not considered desirable qualities generally. Nor did I accuse you or anyone of being anything. I try to discuss only issues and doctrines.

Yes, our opinions about the Bible versions are just that.

Yes, both homosexual and heterosexual fornication are sinful/disgusting in God's eyes.

Over...
 
TruthDefender said:
I follow the NT pattern. One creed through Christ. The OT Law was our Tutor to bring us to Christ.

The so called 44599 supposed creeds are man made. If you have never read the verse that states that there is only ONE creed that God made through Christ and the apostles, then I would suggest reading the NC till you hit that verse.

The physical sciences have a lot of theories, very few, if any, say that all was created by God. So yes, I have a big problem with their lies!
Click to expand...
I have read the bible all my life as I continue to do now. Please cite the verse you refer to where the New Testament states that there is one creed. I know that it says we have one faith. One mission. One hope. One trust. So point me to the one Creed.
 
TruthDefender said:
I follow the NT pattern. One creed through Christ. The OT Law was our Tutor to bring us to Christ.

The so called 44599 supposed creeds are man made. If you have never read the verse that states that there is only ONE creed that God made through Christ and the apostles, then I would suggest reading the NC till you hit that verse.

The physical sciences have a lot of theories, very few, if any, say that all was created by God. So yes, I have a big problem with their lies!
Click to expand...
Do you brush your teeth? Do you monitor your blood pressure? Do use medicine for preventing disease? Do you use a cell phone? Do you watch TV? Do you trust the speedometer in your car? Do you check on weather forecasts? Do you purchase anything online? Do you know you access to the largest library of any civilization that has ever existed sitting in the palm of your hand? Tell me more about how science "lies."
 
biblestudent78 said:
I have read the bible all my life as I continue to do now. Please cite the verse you refer to where the New Testament states that there is one creed. I know that it says we have one faith. One mission. One hope. One trust. So point me to the one Creed.
Click to expand...

The one faith is the one creed (statement of faith) which is the one Gospel.
Do you need pointing?
 
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