Loss of salvation???

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What Paul wrote in 1st Cor. 12:3 is general.
It's not just general; it functions as a part of his argument, which is expressed in the following form: "Since 'X' is true, then what can we conclude from that?"

Paul devotes this section to a discussion about spiritual gifts, comparing supernatural manifestations they may have experienced as pagans, with supernatural manifestations coming from the Holy Spirit.

Contrary to what others might think, the locus of Paul's argument is on what the Holy Spirit will say through a person, not what a person will say through the Holy Spirit. Most readers invert Paul’s emphasis without realizing it.

The correct way to understand his argument is to locate Paul’s focus not in what we say “through the Spirit,” but in what the Spirit says through us. In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul is not primarily concerned with human initiative, human eloquence, or human spiritual performance. His burden is to show that the Holy Spirit is the active agent who distributes gifts, energizes them, and speaks through the members of the body as He wills. The gifts are not expressions of human spiritual prowess; they are manifestations of the Spirit’s own voice and activity. Paul’s argument only makes sense if the direction of agency runs from the Spirit to the person, not the other way around. The Spirit is not a tool we wield to express ourselves — we are vessels through whom the Spirit chooses to make Himself known.

What 1 Corinthians 12:3 does and does not teach

No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."​
Most people take this as a general soteriological statement: “Without the Spirit, no one can believe in Jesus.” That may be true theologically — but that is not Paul’s point here. He is giving the Corinthians a discernment criterion for evaluating utterances in the gathered assembly.

In other words:
  • The Corinthians are confused about spiritual manifestations.
  • Some are claiming ecstatic speech or prophetic words as “Spirit-inspired.”
  • Paul says: Here’s how you know whether the Spirit is speaking through someone.
So the logic is:

  • If someone says “Jesus is accursed,” that utterance is not from the Spirit.
  • If someone says “Jesus is Lord,” that utterance is from the Spirit.

This is not about the possibility of human belief. It is about the source of a spoken confession in the context of spiritual gifts.
 
According to that verse and context, we can see that it is both specific in message and all-encompassing. It is an incorrect assumption on your part to say otherwise. While it is true that anyone can speak those words, however, only those indwelt by the Holy Spirit can, will, and must, speak and mean them with sincerity and from the heart. To say that it is was intended as general in nature, would make the verse irrelevant and meaningless spiritually speaking, because it would have no point, nor convey any direct spiritual edification, truth, or knowledge unto those for whom it was intended, which was its purpose. Because it was spoken by God through Paul, in/by itself, it became self-documenting spiritual truth.
If as you assert that 1st Cor. 12:3 is both specific and all-encompassing then Paul is contradicting Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23.

If as you assert that "anyone can speak those words" then the passage is general.

Something written in the general is most certainly not "irrelevant and meaningless". Over 90% of all language is conveyed in the general.

What is wrong is to take a general statement and use it to negate a more specific statement.

This is what you are doing.

Proclaiming Jesus as Lord does not prove someone is promised salvation or even that they are a Christian.

This should be easy to understand.
 
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If as you assert that 1st Cor. 12:3 is both specific and all-encompassing then Paul is contradicting Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23.

If as you assert that "anyone can speak those words" then the passage is general.

Something written in the general is most certainly not "irrelevant and meaningless". Over 90% of all language is conveyed in the general.

What is wrong is to take a general statement and use it to negate a more specific statement.

This is what you are doing.

Proclaiming Jesus as Lord does not prove someone is promised salvation or even that they are a Christian.

This should be easy to understand.

No, it is not general. It was written specifically to his spiritual brethren - the saved, but not to everyone. Paul was conveying certain
spiritual information to the spiritual brethren alone.

[1Co 12:1 KJV] 1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
 
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It's not just general; it functions as a part of his argument, which is expressed in the following form: "Since 'X' is true, then what can we conclude from that?"
What is wrong with you.

Yes "X" is true but "X" is not defined as an axiom.

IOW, "X" is not humanly attestable.

If "X" is not provable then your assertion that proclaiming Jesus is Lord cannot be a litmus test for salvation.
 
No, it is not general. It was written specifically to his spiritual brethren - the saved, but not to everyone. Paul was conveying certain
spiritual information to the spiritual brethren alone.

[1Co 12:1 KJV] 1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Something can be "written specifically" to a group and still be general in nature. You seem to just want to be obtuse.

Is Matthew 7:21-23 written in the general?

If the act of proclaiming Jesus is Lord a litmus test for salvation then how is the sincere proclamations of the Mormons not valid?
 
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Those who think we can lose our salvation are slapping the Word of God in the face.
Just like they slapped Jesus...

Omniscient God is going to give His beloved Son a gift that God knows is defective and must be thrown away?
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes
to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him
who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of
all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
John 6:36-39​
... are they dumb?

Are they?


Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1​
And, they sure do hate it!​

They are Proverbs 12:1
Yes sir.
Truer words were never spoken !
 
What is wrong with you.

Yes "X" is true but "X" is not defined as an axiom.

IOW, "X" is not humanly attestable.

If "X" is not provable then your assertion that proclaiming Jesus is Lord cannot be a litmus test for salvation.
Haven't seen the other posts,
But proclaiming Jesus is Lord can be done by anyone.
Even someone without the Holy Spirit.

It's those that BELIEVE it that makes the difference.
 
Something can be "written specifically" to a group and still be general in nature. You seem to just want to be obtuse.

Is Matthew 7:21-23 written in the general?

If the act of proclaiming Jesus is Lord a litmus test for salvation then how is the sincere proclamations of the Mormons not valid?

Oh my, this is getting ridiculous! Ever hear the adage of beating a dead horse?
 
Haven't seen the other posts,
But proclaiming Jesus is Lord can be done by anyone.
Even someone without the Holy Spirit.

It's those that BELIEVE it that makes the difference.
Did those in Matthew 7:21-23 believe or disbelieve?

Did they believe but not enough?

Don't ask rogerg, he holding a whip.
 
Faith is Obedience (cont'd)

NKJ Mark1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

1. Jesus commands: “Repent and believe the gospel.”
2. Therefore, believing the gospel is the commanded response.
3. A commanded response is obedience.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

NAS John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1. John says the one who believes in the Son has life.
2. John says in parallel that the one who does not obey the Son will not see life.
3. Therefore, not believing is disobedience.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

1. Paul’s gospel mission is “the obedience of faith” among all nations.
2. “Of faith” is an epexegetical genitive, defining the obedience as faith itself.
3. Therefore, the obedience God requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV Romans 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--

1. Paul describes the gospel’s goal as “the obedience of faith.”
2. “Of faith” is an epexegetical genitive, defining the obedience as faith.
3. Therefore, the obedience God requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV Romans 15:18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience-- by word and deed (work),

1. Paul says Christ accomplished through him “the obedience of the Gentiles.”
2. Paul has already defined this obedience as faith (Rom 1:5; Rom 10:16; Rom 16:26).
3. Therefore, the obedience of the Gentiles is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1. Paul says some “do not obey the gospel.”
2. Paul elsewhere defines this as not believing the gospel (Rom 10:16).
3. Therefore, the obedience the gospel requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

* Note “and” is likely ascensive – those who don’t know God = those who do not obey the Gospel

NKJ 1Peter2:7-8 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

1. Peter describes the disobedient as those who do not believe.
2. He uses “disobey” and “disbelieve” as interchangeable categories.
3. Therefore, disobedience = unbelief.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

1Pet4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1. Peter speaks of those who “do not obey the gospel of God.”
2. Apostolic usage defines this as not believing the gospel (Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; 1 Pet 2:7–8; John 3:36; Heb 3–4).
3. Therefore, the obedience the gospel requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

NKJ Heb4:3, 6, 11 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world….6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience…11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

1. Those who believe enter God’s rest (Heb 4:3).
2. Those who were disobedient did not enter God’s rest (Heb 4:6, 11).
3. Hebrews 3:18–19 identifies this disobedience as unbelief.
4. Therefore, belief is obedience, and unbelief is disobedience

NKJ Heb3:14-19 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
 
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Did those in Matthew 7:21-23 believe or disbelieve?

Did they believe but not enough?

Don't ask rogerg, he holding a whip.
You know what I think is interesting?
Jesus only spoke about being born from above one time in John 3:3,5

Every other teaching of Jesus was about obedience and living for God.
It's taken for granted that those that want to obey God also believe in Him,,,,
because those that do not believe In God have no need to obey Him.

The teachings of Jesus in Matthew 5 and 7 are pivotal to the Christian faith.

Some will say that Jesus said that He "never knew them" In Matthew 7:21 because
they were not born from above. This is nowhere to be found in Jesus' statement.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


Jesus CLEARLY stated why He would banish them...
because they were lawless....
to be lawless means to break the rules...
to disobey God.

Again,,,and how many times have I stated....
those who do not believe are not required to obey God....they are lost already.....
those who believe are requred to obey God.

Jesus said DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU....
because they were disobedient and did not keep Christ's teachings/commandments.
 
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It's not just general; it functions as a part of his argument, which is expressed in the following form: "Since 'X' is true, then what can we conclude from that?"

Paul devotes this section to a discussion about spiritual gifts, comparing supernatural manifestations they may have experienced as pagans, with supernatural manifestations coming from the Holy Spirit.

Contrary to what others might think, the locus of Paul's argument is on what the Holy Spirit will say through a person, not what a person will say through the Holy Spirit. Most readers invert Paul’s emphasis without realizing it.

The correct way to understand his argument is to locate Paul’s focus not in what we say “through the Spirit,” but in what the Spirit says through us. In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul is not primarily concerned with human initiative, human eloquence, or human spiritual performance. His burden is to show that the Holy Spirit is the active agent who distributes gifts, energizes them, and speaks through the members of the body as He wills. The gifts are not expressions of human spiritual prowess; they are manifestations of the Spirit’s own voice and activity. Paul’s argument only makes sense if the direction of agency runs from the Spirit to the person, not the other way around. The Spirit is not a tool we wield to express ourselves — we are vessels through whom the Spirit chooses to make Himself known.

What 1 Corinthians 12:3 does and does not teach

No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."​
Most people take this as a general soteriological statement: “Without the Spirit, no one can believe in Jesus.” That may be true theologically — but that is not Paul’s point here. He is giving the Corinthians a discernment criterion for evaluating utterances in the gathered assembly.

In other words:
  • The Corinthians are confused about spiritual manifestations.
  • Some are claiming ecstatic speech or prophetic words as “Spirit-inspired.”
  • Paul says: Here’s how you know whether the Spirit is speaking through someone.
So the logic is:

  • If someone says “Jesus is accursed,” that utterance is not from the Spirit.
  • If someone says “Jesus is Lord,” that utterance is from the Spirit.

This is not about the possibility of human belief. It is about the source of a spoken confession in the context of spiritual gifts.
Can I say JESUS IS LORD and not believe it?
 
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Faith is Obedience (cont'd)

NKJ Mark1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

1. Jesus commands: “Repent and believe the gospel.”
2. Therefore, believing the gospel is the commanded response.
3. A commanded response is obedience.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

NAS John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1. John says the one who believes in the Son has life.
2. John says in parallel that the one who does not obey the Son will not see life.
3. Therefore, not believing is disobedience.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

1. Paul’s gospel mission is “the obedience of faith” among all nations.
2. “Of faith” is an epexegetical genitive, defining the obedience as faith itself.
3. Therefore, the obedience God requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV Romans 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--

1. Paul describes the gospel’s goal as “the obedience of faith.”
2. “Of faith” is an epexegetical genitive, defining the obedience as faith.
3. Therefore, the obedience God requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV Romans 15:18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience-- by word and deed (work),

1. Paul says Christ accomplished through him “the obedience of the Gentiles.”
2. Paul has already defined this obedience as faith (Rom 1:5; Rom 10:16; Rom 16:26).
3. Therefore, the obedience of the Gentiles is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

ESV 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1. Paul says some “do not obey the gospel.”
2. Paul elsewhere defines this as not believing the gospel (Rom 10:16).
3. Therefore, the obedience the gospel requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

* Note “and” is likely ascensive – those who don’t know God = those who do not obey the Gospel

NKJ 1Peter2:7-8 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

1. Peter describes the disobedient as those who do not believe.
2. He uses “disobey” and “disbelieve” as interchangeable categories.
3. Therefore, disobedience = unbelief.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

1Pet4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1. Peter speaks of those who “do not obey the gospel of God.”
2. Apostolic usage defines this as not believing the gospel (Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; 1 Pet 2:7–8; John 3:36; Heb 3–4).
3. Therefore, the obedience the gospel requires is faith.
4. Therefore, faith is obedience.

NKJ Heb4:3, 6, 11 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world….6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience…11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

1. Those who believe enter God’s rest (Heb 4:3).
2. Those who were disobedient did not enter God’s rest (Heb 4:6, 11).
3. Hebrews 3:18–19 identifies this disobedience as unbelief.
4. Therefore, belief is obedience, and unbelief is disobedience

NKJ Heb3:14-19 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Great post !

1774647841005.png
 
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Did those in Matthew 7:21-23 believe or disbelieve?

Did they believe but not enough?

Don't ask rogerg, he holding a whip.
Went back a couple of posts.
I don't really understand Roger's position on this.
What I know for sure is that I state that we must obey God...
and some on these threads don't agree.

They don't actually say the words that obedience is not necessary....
but they'll fight it all the way.

Right below Matthew 7:21-23 we find Matthew 7:25-26.
Here Jesus teaches about the foolish man who does not act on the words of Jesus....
the wind came and knocked his house down.

I don't know how Jesus could have made more clear that He expects us to learn from Him and
act on His teachings.
 
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True faith is given as a free gift from God to those whom He saves as a part of the salvation process. To them, faith is unconditionally given. All necessary parts of salvation are provided by God; nothing is by man except to be its recipient and beneficiary.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
How have the THEM of 2 Peter 1:1 obtained the precious faith?
What does THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD mean?

Where does the above state anything about unconditionality?
 
People like you are the reason Romans 12:3 was written.

I normaly do not behave that way.

That is how I appeared to you.
I understand.

Sometimes... God will have a believer appearing to act in such a way, as to have those who are habitually that way, to turn on him, and in turn, be judging themselves. In doing so? Admitting before God, that they know that those who do such things are doing wrong.

God's justice in action can be very interesting to watch.
 
What I know for sure is that I state that we must obey God...
and some on these threads don't agree.
Anyone who ignores or argues against obeying Jesus Christ - obeying God - is anti-Christ.

Ps2 YHWH's Christ is YHWH's King who inherits the nations and whose possession is the earth.

This is Paul's only foundation that can be built upon per 1Cor3:11 which is Jesus = Christ, just as he evangelized (Acts18:5; Acts13:33).

There's a reason He said all authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Him (Matt28:18) and we're told that at His name all knees shall bow (Phil2:10).

Biblical Faith in God is Obedience to God. It's absolutely clear in Scripture.

The question for this thread is whether or not someone thinks they can willfully turn from Him, disobey Him and our Father is going to put up with it.