Loss of salvation???
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I asked this question:
Can I SAY jesus Is Lord
but not believe it?
or
If I say Jesus is Lord, does it mean I really believe it?
I agree.
A person is free to say anything they want to....
and not mean it.
This is why we say on these threads that only God knows the heart.
Only God knows if we truly believe IN Him.
This is why Paul says that we believe with the heart and confess with the mouth.
Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
To confess only is not sufficient because confess in NT language means more than to just speak:
Romans 10:10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
CONFESS:
to be in agreement with
give thanks
promise
acknowledge
Lexical Summary homologeó: To confess, to acknowledge, to agree Original Word: ὁμολογέωPart of Speech: Verb Transliteration: homologeó Pronunciation: ho-mo-lo-GEH-o Phonetic Spelling: (hom-ol-og-eh'-o) KJV: con-(pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise NASB: confess, confesses, confessed, acknowledge, admit, assured, confessing Word Origin: [from a compound of the base of G3674 (ὁμοῦ - together) and G3056 (λόγος - word)] 1. to assent, i.e. covenant, acknowledge Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to confess, profess From a compound of the base of homou and logos; to assent, i.e. Covenant, acknowledge -- con- (pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise. see GREEK homou see GREEK logos HELPS Word-studies 3670 homologéō (from 3674 /homoú, "together" and 3004 /légō, "speak to a conclusion") – properly, to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse). [3670 /homologéō ("confess") means to speak the same thing, i.e. "assent, agree with, confess, declare, admit" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 120).] |
Agreed.
Many are waiting for THE anti-Christ,,,but it was understood in the early church, and now, that anyone that is against Jesus IS the anti-Christ...it just means to be against Christ.
Unbelievers are against Christ...which is why they cannot be saved.
Jesus is the Savior of the world....
if a person wishes to be saved, they must...
1. Accept God John 3:16
2. God gives them to Christ for salvation John 6:37
3. They must obey Christ John 14:15
John 6:37 is misunderstood by those that believe in unconditional eternal security.
Jesus will never cast anyone out.
But they can decide to leave.
If they leave the fold, the sheep, that are protected by Jesus...they will no longer be part of the saved fold.
One can wander away willingly...become apostate.
One can not ACT on the words of Jesus as He clearly demands in Matthew 7:25-26....those that do not ACT on the words of Jesus will have their house blown down by the wind.
The wind will come.
Only those IN THE FOLD are protected.
Jesus said HE is the good shepherd.
HIS sheep hear His voice.
We cannot hear His voice unless we are in the fold.
John 10:27
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Those that believe in OSAS seem to forget about the last part...
Jesus said the sheep that hear His voice FOLLOW HIM.
If we are not following Him
it means we are not hearing His voice
If we do not hear His voice
it means we are not saved, not His sheep, not in the protected fold.
The above are those that want Jesus as their Savior
but not as their Lord.
Both must be present.
Luke 6:46
46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Then Jesus says WHO is His sheep....WHO is in the fold for protection:
Those who ACT on his words....
47 "Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them,
To post John 6:37, as many do, and not understand what Jesus is teaching can be
a costly mistake in the overall understanding of the NT teachings of Jesus.
Agreed 100%
I think the above replies to this.
Reformed theology has spread to other systems and has corrupted NT teachings.
OSAS comes from the idea of Preservation of the Saints.
It sound good....the problem is that only calvinism teaches monergism...
God does all the work of salvation.
No other denomination believes this but instead believes in synergism....
which simply means a cooperation between man and God for man's ultimate salvation.
But OSAS has borrowed monergism from reformed theology....
and some have adopted ONLY this part of calvinism because it sounds good to the ear....
Orthodox (lower case o) teaches that one must believe in God AND follow the teachings of God in
order to be saved.
If we do not follow the teachings of God....we will not be saved.
Yes sir.
In the Greek language, as you know, to disobey is to disbelieve
to disbelieve is to disobey. The two are tied inexorably together.
Which means that also the opposite is true:
To believe means to obey.
Those that attempt to separate belief from obedience are doing a great disservice to both the
Christian religion (I say RELIGION) and those that follow the Christian faith.
John 6:29 is so incredibly misunderstood that I've tired of explaining it.
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
The above is posted by those that believe works are as filthy rags and nothing is required for salvation except to believe in the One that God has sent.
Sure.
By what does BELIEVE mean??
I keep hearing about this "mental assent" and even the demons believe.
WELL
Those that use John 6:29 as a proof text that works are NOT necessary (works, good deeds) are stating exactly the idea of mental assent. And this is NOT what John 6:29 is teaching.
It's using the word BELIEVE as it was used when the NT was written.
It means: to learn from, to trust, to follow with ideas and actions.
I'm coming to believe that I should stop using the word WORKS since we've come so far from Christian theology that some conflate good works with The Works of the Law. An important distinction and maybe ALL WORKS are now associated with The Law.
It shouldn't be like this,,,, we should be able to make the distinction, but maybe the movement from the Christian religion is becoming so far that some can't tell the difference anymore? (from good works and works of The Law).
Or maybe not.
Since some clearly post that anything is a work as if works were filthy (isaiah 44).
Some even stating that faith is a work.
Difficult to understand what's going on these days.
I've seen a lot of change.
Perfect.
This is the obedience of faith which is for all nations.
Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Yes sir!
Great post.
NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.
As I look at these verses again, I'm reminded of just how informative and intense they are. I've elaborated just a bit.
I don't know why much of lexical work says apistos means unbelieving. pistos means faithful. apistos is negating faithful, so 'not faithful' - 'unfaithful'
We can talk all we want. We can confess Him and confess to know Him. But denying Him (note the verse connections for "deny) in WORKS means all our talk and profession/confession is just (fill in your own word(s)).
Look at the language Paul uses for this: Such people are disgusting - they are worthless for every good work.
THEY ARE DISOBEDIENT.
These theologies that get "obedience" and "works" wrong have created a disaster for the Faith of Jesus Christ - the Faith He founded, completed (Heb12:2) and handed down to His Holy Ones (Jude1:3) - the Faith in which He lived in perfect obedience to our Father - perfect faithfulness (Heb3:1-2).
These threads, as childish as they can get, can serve to get us to look ever-deeper into the Word to evaluate what's being said in regard to what Scripture says and doesn't say. If they didn't I'd likely not be involved in these games.
I've begun to ask a question of the Word I don't think I've asked before recently doing so.
I'm not being dogmatic, and I know of the unity in the Godhead, but we also know there is a subordination of Son to Father.
Our Father sent our Lord and first-born brother (Rom8:29) to save. In verse like John6:37 we're reading of our Father's will for our Lord. In John12:47-50 Jesus tells us He didn't come to judge, but to save, and that His Word would judge men in the last day. So, He tells us what our Father's will is and it is not our Father's will that Jesus cast out - force out - those who come to Him.
Here's my question - what is our Father doing?
- NKJ Rom11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
- NKJ Heb6:3 And this we will do if God permits.
- Context is not being lazy and learning and growing to maturity as He commands us to do. At some point it looks to me like He may say, 'that's enough' - not permit the growth. Then the Text goes into a warning about falling away, no productivity, and being burned.
- Reminds me of how He at some point may assist in the hardening of those who harden their hearts. The danger is where this leads - where we in effect take our disobedient, unfaithful selves.
- NKJ 2Tim2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
I don't think we get to presume on our Holy and Righteous God who let this world descend into depravity based upon a test in the Garden and is said to deal with sinful/disobedient/unfaithful men in wrath.
Nor do I think we get to presume upon our Father who sent His Son and our first-born brother and Lord to die a horrible death on our behalf.
I do see a security in the Word. It's for those who do what He says and take part in His true grace (Titus2:11-12) in faith-obedience (many verses) and don't deny Him in works (Titus1:16).
We all should read this verse first thing every morning, especially before reading some of these faith-alone OSAS posts.
While somewhat recently seeing some Calvinistic OSAS on this thread, it seems more to be the Free-Grace, Faith-Alone, Eternal Security version being asserted.
IMO it shows how these theological systems are so intertwined.
While F-G is adamantly opposed to Reformed and Roman Catholicism, it is really just Reformed monergism in the experiential phase of salvation and an extreme pendulum-swing re: faith & works, that results in some undefined and simplistic faith that has been stripped of its biblical elaboration and meaning and sees works in anything required of unbelieving men.
It's more than a disservice and the more I deal with it the more I see how dark it is.
I see two main issues in the Garden; man's volition and man's faith-obedience.
Once we deal with those we can find them interconnected with many if not all the main and vital words and concepts in the Word, like "love" for example.
Maybe at some point I'll go back into some of my old work and show how this obedience aspect of faith is at the core of these many words and concepts I mention.
We are not His equals and never will be. We are created and subordinate and that's all there is to it.
The fact that we can share in His divine nature (2Pet1:2-4) and Holiness (Heb12:10) still astounds me, especially as I read and partake in some of these threads or pay any attention to what takes place in the world.
Some of these theologies are a nightmare.
I believe those words are an edited twisted version of what was said.
Jesus is referring to the Father and what the Father said about Him.
I will raise them up a prophet.... And it shall come to pass that whoever does not hearken to him shall be destroyed.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 Acts 3:23
This is the will of Him that sent me, that everyone that HEARS the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting life
The Son is not actually seen through the Bible, but through the scripture He is heard, those who believe what He said gain salvation, that is, they gain the Holy Spirit, who helps them to live out His words.
The correct translations shine forth as light.
The twisted translations lead to error and confusion. Indeed you would have a hard time trying to explain what it means to see the Son and believe in Him.
It seems like you didn't read my post. Paul is talking about what the Holy Spirit says, not about what we say.
Agree with how believing has been distorted.
It's interesting and sad watching some on here speak against mental assent and then just explain Faith in another form of mental assent.
I think the 1Cor15:1-4 "gospel" is part of the issue.
Those verses are just setting up Paul's argument about the vital importance of the resurrection to our Faith.
They are an excerpt of Paul's greater message that we can see in Acts13:16-41.
Paul's foundational message that is the only foundation that can be built upon is that Jesus is the Christ (1Cor3:10-11).
In Acts13:33 Paul references Psalm2 that explains who and what YHWH's Christ is. Maybe if they really understood this they'd know that belief with obedience is a farce:
NKJ Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD-YHWH and against His Anointed (Christ), saying, 3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: 6 "Yet I have set My King (ultimately Jesus Christ) On My holy hill of Zion." 7 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'" 10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
What is it we don't get about who our Lord Jesus Christ is?
Paul's foundation was to place in the minds of people the fact of who and what Jesus is - He's YHWH's Anointed/Christ King of all nations and the possessor of the ends of the earth.
This is who and what we believe in and there's absolutely no way that this biblical belief allows for anything but faithful obedience to Jesus Christ - to YHWH - and being and thinking and speaking and working as He requires of His creation.
You've placed HEAR in bold which signals to me that you actually undersatand what it means in the original language.
I'm not one to harken back to "the Greek" because it seems to me that those who do this are always trying to explain away one verse or other and doing so by killing the Greek.
The English should be sufficient to understand God's word, although of course, the Greek would add a lot - but how many of us understand it that well?
So it would seem that I agree with what you've posted, although some clarification would be needed for the last sentence - and only because our religion, the Christian religion, has been washed down to be unrecognizable the way some post.
Here is your sentence:
The correct translations shine forth as light.
The twisted translations lead to error and confusion. Indeed you would have a hard time trying to explain what it means to see the Son and believe in Him.
What is the correct tanslation?
What is the incorrect translation?
The Holy Spirit said that Jesus is Lord?
I thought the believer had to say it and mean it.
Maybe I read your post and would like some clarification....
But it seems it's not forthcoming.
No problem.
'Hears' is the correct translation.
'Sees' is incorrect.
The Messiah made a contrast to what the Father said:
Whoever does not hearken to Him will be destroyed.
Whoever does hearken to Him will live forever and ever.
Yes, try to follow Paul's argument.
Maybe, but that isn't Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 12.
Try to study verses from within their context.
NKJ John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Although this word can have the sense of 'understands' - in context Jesus had been sent and is on earth with people physically seeing Him.
It's pretty tough to change what John says:
NKJ 1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
Different word than John6:40 but same word family.