I agree with you, I just wish your conclusion of what that looks like matched to what this very warning is about, that we are told in the NT not to follow in their same example of rebellion/disobedience in the wilderness Heb 4:6 Heb4:11 that kept an entire generation out of their promised rest. Heb3:7-19 Eze20:13 Eze 20:15-16
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
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Luke 18~~35 And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging: 36 And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant. 37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by. 38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me. 39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me. 40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him, 41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight. 42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.
Acts 16:31~~They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
It is very simple:
Grace alone through faith alone.........The "big bag" of believing/faith only distorts the simplicity of Christ.
If the love is true, it endures forever. This is the same with works. I mean, how could anyone make love seem disgusting or detestable? But it happens all the time.
I'm gonna take my stab on this hot topic of a discussion. I'm not an authority, this is just my understanding. Right or wrong, this is how I see it.
I don't think it's possible to lose your salvation, nor am I saying, that the elect have a license to sin. I think the key point is, that no one really knows that they are saved, until judgement day. If the elect were chosen, before the foundation of the world, how can it be that the someone will lose their salvation? You are either saved by grace, or not.
Does not God know, who HIS people are? Let me add some verses here..
John 10:28
28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
Matthew 22
11But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’
But the man was speechless.
13Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Revelation 14
12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Ecclesiastes 12
13When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. 14For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.
I don't think it's possible to lose your salvation, nor am I saying, that the elect have a license to sin. I think the key point is, that no one really knows that they are saved, until judgement day. If the elect were chosen, before the foundation of the world, how can it be that the someone will lose their salvation? You are either saved by grace, or not.
Does not God know, who HIS people are? Let me add some verses here..
John 10:28
28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
Matthew 22
11But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’
But the man was speechless.
13Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Revelation 14
12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Ecclesiastes 12
13When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. 14For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil.
RE: LOSS in Hebrews3:
NKJ Hebrews3:16-19 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
NKJ Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
BTW & FWIW, I am aware of some teachings about the concept of who and what the sharers are here.
NKJ Hebrews3:16-19 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
- Hebrews says some “rebelled” and “sinned” in the wilderness.
- Hebrews says in parallel that they “did not obey.”
- Hebrews says in parallel that they “did not believe.”
- Therefore, unbelief is rebellion, sin, and disobedience — and therefore belief is obedience.
- Those who believe enter God’s rest (Heb 4:3).
- Those who were disobedient did not enter God’s rest (Heb 4:6, 11).
- Hebrews 3:18–19 identifies this disobedience as unbelief.
- Therefore, belief is obedience, and unbelief is disobedience
- Hebrews3:16-19 tell us “unbelief is rebellion, sin, and disobedience — and therefore belief is obedience”
- Hebrews4:3-11 tells us belief is obedience, and unbelief is disobedience and that there is a rest for those who believe/obey but not for those who disobey/don’t believe.
NKJ Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
- COMMAND TO BELIEVERS: CAREFULLY OBSERVE JESUS CHRIST WHOM WE CONFESS
- Jesus Christ was faithful to God
- Jesus Christ was counted worthy of more glory than faithful Moses
- God is the builder of all things
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
- Jesus Christ is a Son of His own House[hold]
- CONDITIONAL STATEMENT FOR BELIEVERS:
- We are Jesus Christ’s house[hold] IF INDEED/ONLY IF WE HOLD THE CONFIDENCE/BOLDNESS AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM UNTIL THE END
- Notice this holding fast until the end in the context of faithfulness like Jesus Christ
- We are Jesus Christ’s house[hold] IF INDEED/ONLY IF WE HOLD THE CONFIDENCE/BOLDNESS AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM UNTIL THE END
- For this reason - that we are Jesus Christ’s household ONLY IF we hold the confidence/boldness and the rejoicing of the hope firmly until the end – the Holy Spirit says: TODAY if you hear the His voice
- COMMAND TO BELIEVERS: DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS
- Rebelliousness
- Testing God
- Going astray in your hearts
- Not knowing God’s ways
- Angers God
- In wrath God will not allow such to enter His rest
- COMMAND TO BELIEVERS:
- BEWARE/PAY CLOSE ATTENTION, brothers, so that there will not be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in withdrawng/distancing from the living God
- rather, SUMMON/URGE STRONGLY/IMPLORE/ENCOURAGE one another each day, as long as it is called ‘today’ so none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin
- Explanation of all that’s been said.
- CONDITIONAL STATEMENT FOR BELIEVERS:
- We are sharers of the Christ IF ONLY/ONLY IF WE HOLD FAST THE HUPOSTASIS FIRM UNTIL THE END
- Hupostasis:
- Can mean confidence but another word has already been translated as confidence/boldness in Heb3:6
- Has already been used in Heb1:3 to speak of the underlying divine nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ.
- What believers are to hold fast and firm until the end is just who and what Jesus Christ is – He’s the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s nature/essence
- Hupostasis:
- We are sharers of the Christ IF ONLY/ONLY IF WE HOLD FAST THE HUPOSTASIS FIRM UNTIL THE END
- We can see that this is book-ending Heb3:7
- Today – [REPEATED] COMMAND TO BELIEVERS: DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION/REVOLT
- Those who hardened their hearts to God’s voice – to what God said – were those who heard and rebelled/ provoked/angered/disobeyed
- They sinned
- God was angry with them for 40 years
- Their corpses ultimately fell in the wilderness
- God swore they – those who hardened their hearts = those who rebelled/provoked/angered/sinned = those who disobeyed, would not enter His rest
- Those who hardened their hearts = those who rebelled/provoked/angered/sinned = those who disobeyed = those who were in unbelief
- Unbelief = hardened heart, rebellious, sinners, disobedient.
- We can explain this away with some dispensational theory.
- We can explain this away with some OSAS or Eternal Security theory.
- It is a lesson about being faithful sons of the Household of the Faithful Son Jesus Christ.
- It explains very clearly that faithfulness is hearing and obeying/believing God
- It explains very clearly that disobeying God is not believing God & not believing God is disobeying God.
- It explains that disobeying God/not believing God is of self-hardened hearts, hearts hardened by sin's deceitfulness, sin, rebellion/revolt.
- It makes perfectly clear that holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling are COMMANDED:
- To closely observe the Faithful Jesus Christ
- To not harden their hearts
- To pay close attention so there is no evil, unbelieving heart in any of them in/by withdrawing from the living God
- To implore each other every day so they are not hardened as a result of sin’s deceitfulness
- Note how they're commanded not to harden theirr hearts and to not let sin’s deceitfulness harden them.
- IMO this means if we let sin deceive us and others, then we will harden our hearts an/or vice-versa.
- Note how they're commanded not to harden theirr hearts and to not let sin’s deceitfulness harden them.
- It makes it perfectly clear that the future of believers is CONDITIONAL:
- They are Christ’s Household only if they remain bold and rejoicing in hope until the end
- They are sharers of Jesus Christ only if they retain until the end the fact that Jesus Christ is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s nature – God’s essence.
- This is really just the same as what Paul says is the only foundation that can be built upon: Jesus is YHWH's Christ/King.
- It's also argument for the deity of Jesus Christ
BTW & FWIW, I am aware of some teachings about the concept of who and what the sharers are here.
Many years ago an older Messianic Jewish lady shared that those “Filthy rags” were not abhorrent because of their nastiness. They were used as menstrual cloths and the fluids that they absorbed were an indication of a womb with no life, a “Dead womb” if you will. So, the focus was contrary to what many think. A dead womb vs one filled with new life.
Reads like basic Reformed theology except for the not knowing of their salvation until judgment day.
OSAS is basic Reformed theology a.k.a. Perseverance.
I have never heard it said, the way I just did above, so for that reason, it's completely unique in a sense (for me at least). From my experienced OSAS is a taboo doctrine at CC, but I think it's true, so it's going against the grain there (mainstream). Also my statements goes against everything I heard growing up in the faith.
I have always heard in the faith, people proclaiming that they are saved, since they prayed a sinners prayer, had an emotional experience, so there are now saved. People even proclaiming a date, they were saved. Well, Bible clearly says, the chosen were predestined before the foundation of the world.
I think you analysis maybe short sighted for the reasons listed above, but to share some views with Protestants isn't something I'm ashamed of, since I'm a Protestant, and have serious concerns about Catholicism. Calvin was extremely intelligent and maybe just to far ahead of his time. Do I agree with everything John Calvin taught, like infant baptism? Not so much.
Anyways, I hope I brought value to this discussion, despite if you agree, or not.
It doesn't seem to be a taboo doctrine at CC - there are over 10k posts somewhat dealing with it on this thread alone.
My read of what you said is admittedly surface level in that I read through it quickly. It reads like Reformed theology and doesn't take a lot of concentration to see it.
The person who agreed with you is a Reformed advocate.
Well, I noticed you joined in 2024, you might of missed some heated debates. I would encourage you to join the chatrooms, and see how taboo OSAS is in there, you may have a revelation. Armenians aren't yelling, they are just Armenian. lol I will leave it, on that note.
I think I'm just a little astonished, that you quickly minimized my view points as Reformed, literally never heard it explained the way, I just did....EVER! I would dare you to find a quote, that explained the topic the exact same way, I did, because I want to know why I haven't heard it before. lol
Anyways, carry on.........
T
TruthDefender
Guest
God says those who walk after the flesh (sin) reap corruption (Gal 6:7,8) so those doing such disqualify themselves from salvation since they are turning their back on the Lord in favor of walking in sinful behavior.
God's Word tell us to put off the old man
Ephesians 4:22-24
put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Are you claiming we can refuse to put on the new man and continue walking in the old man and still, be saved?
Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more.
Reckon Jesus in error and was cool with her continually living in sin?
You fundamentally misunderstand the gospel and the purpose of salvation but then this is the case with all who espouse the fake so called sin friendly OSAS "gospel"
T
TruthDefender
Guest
Yes, exactly!! All the good promises apply IF we maintain faith/ obedience, and stay the course. It’s was no different in the OT (They perished, if they lost faith and were disobedient).
It depends in part what you mean by "apart from Christ".
Jesus at minimum commands unbelievers here, personally and then through His men:
You're asserting I minimized your viewpoints. Comparing and classifying is not always minimizing.
Time around here doesn't make any difference.
Why do you think your viewpoint is unique?
While obedience is often coincident with belief, it does not follow that obedience is synonymous with belief. In the context, God made a promise to be "god" to Israel. What did that mean? For Yahweh to be "god" for Israel, among other things, it meant that he would protect her from her enemies. This promise was tested when God ordered Israel to enter the promised land. They didn't obey God because they didn't believe him. But Israel was without excuse because they witnessed Yahweh defeat the gods of the Egyptians.
Hebrews 3:5-6
Notice that Paul is comparing Moses and Jesus. He says that Moses was faithful in his house as a servant, while Jesus is faithful in his house as a son. This suggests that Jesus has authority over Moses because he holds a higher position, as a Son has a higher rank than a servant in the household.
Speaking in the collective "we", Paul includes himself among those in the household of God. He stands among many people who hold fast to our confidence until the end.
What he doesn't say is that some left the household. Which is what he would need to say in order to support your idea of loss.
And WE will. By definition, those who don't hold fast to the faith are not in the household.
Off in the ditch yet again I see.
You can say so all you want, mature Christians will continue following what the Lord teaches in His Word which is how I know OSAS is false doctrine seeing it's all sin friendly and it's adherents do not teach repentance from dead works
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying
again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God
*We should grow beyond the foundational teachings of the Gospel and grow in to a mature
Christian who does not walk after dead works and instead walks after the New Man which is
created in righteousness and true holiness (see Ephesians 4:22-24, Romans 13:14, Colossians 3:10)
