Loss of salvation???

[studier]

The passage lacks a parallel structure. Instead, the passage consists of three rhetorical questions.

Hebrews 3:16–18 forms a three‑question chain:

1. Who rebelled? (v. 16)
2. With whom was God angry? (v. 17)
3. To whom did He swear they would not enter His rest? (v. 18)

This is not parallelism. It’s progressive intensification:

• v. 16 → their rebellion
• v. 17 → God’s anger
• v. 18 → God’s oath of judgment

Not sure why you miss what I state: Heb3:18-19 is parallelism of unbelief and disobedience - logic says belief and obedience are parallel.

Also don't know why you drop rebellion <> sin <> disobedience <> unbelief from v.16-19.

 

[Cameron143]

When he obeys the command to believe - this is what simultaneous and parallel faith-obedience means.

But by definition, unbelievers don't believe. Neither do they possess faith. Neither do they obey. In effect, you have unbelievers believing and obeying. You have unbelievers performing actions that unbelievers are incapable of performing.

 

[studier]

But by definition, unbelievers don't believe. Neither do they possess faith. Neither do they obey. In effect, you have unbelievers believing and obeying. You have unbelievers performing actions that unbelievers are incapable of performing.

Your theology is showing and your logic is worsening.

 

[rogerg]

Did those in Matthew 7:21-23 believe or disbelieve?

Did they believe but not enough?

Don't ask rogerg, he holding a whip.

none of the above

Okay, for the moment (albeit probably fleetingly) I feel obliged to reply to your post since I see that you've referenced me in it.

In Mat 7:21-23, we read:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV]
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The key to it, I believe, is described within verse 22. By their plea to Jesus, their appeal to "enter into" was not founded upon the sacrifice or blood of Christ but instead based upon THEIR works: THEIR works of prophesying in His name, THEIR works of casting out devils, and many other such works of THEIRS. From that, it is evident their trust was actually in themselves and in what they did to try to earn salvation but not in Christ as THE Savior. By trying to use their sinful works as leverage, they demonstrated they were never saved. It means their prophesying was the prophesying of a false and sinful gospel being its false and sinful teachers - whose foundation are of man and not Christ, therefore, they were rightly judged by Christ as workers of iniquity. Christ told them " I never knew you" because they were not of His elect - those He foreknew from before the foundation of the world - those chosen by God for salvation (and who thereby forever, through God, will remain saved).
Verse 22 hearkens back to 1 Co 12:3, in that by their own words, they demonstrated they were unable to truly say that Jesus is THE (and singular) Lord and not themselves. Being unsaved, the Holy Spirit did not dwell within them that they should do so.

 

[Cameron143]

Your theology is showing and your logic is worsening.

I haven't mentioned theology. I'm merely applying logic. And it's fine to question my logic, but you have done so without repudiating it.

 

[studier]

But by definition, unbelievers don't believe. Neither do they possess faith. Neither do they obey. In effect, you have unbelievers believing and obeying. You have unbelievers performing actions that unbelievers are incapable of performing.

I haven't mentioned theology. I'm merely applying logic. And it's fine to question my logic, but you have done so without repudiating it.

When the unbeliever believes as commanded, the unbeliever simultaneously obeys the command to believe.

You have unbelievers incapable of believing until they are regenerate. We both know this is your theology and its insertion shows in your erroneous logic which I showed you how to correct.

All you're really saying as you continue trying is that unbelievers don't believe so unbelievers can't believe, which is just more logical error.

 

[Toknow]

NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.

As I look at these verses again, I'm reminded of just how informative and intense they are. I've elaborated just a bit.

Being disqualified...
It reminded me of Paul wondering if even HE might not be disqualified for not disciplining his body...his flesh to make it his slave, as he taught in Romans 6:16....we are the slave to the one to whom we present ourself.


1 Corinthians 9:25-27
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
The OSAS'ers believe this means that Paul will not receive the prize,,,,but disqualified means he would be out of the race...
removed from the possibility of winning the prize.....the imperishable wreath....
and what is this wreath:
our salvation.
And how much more important is our salvation than a prize won in any race?


What do you think of:

1 Corinthians 9:24
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

Some versions I have say "run in such a way as to earn the prize".

I don't know why much of lexical work says apistos means unbelieving. pistos means faithful. apistos is negating faithful, so 'not faithful' - 'unfaithful'

I don't presume to know enough about this...
but will offer what has come to mind.

I looked up UNBELIEF and UNFAITHFUL in a concordance.

UNBELIEF:
MATTHEW 13:58 ATHEISTS
MARK 6:6 "
9:24 A PART THAT DOES NOT BELIEVE
16:14 HARDNESS OF HEART/ATHEIST
ROMANS 11:20 BRANCHES BROKEN OFF FOR UNBELIEF
11:23 ATHEISM
HEBREWS 3.19 ATHEISM


UNFAITHFUL:
LUKE 12:46 BELIEVER - SLAVE TO HIS MASTER
ROMANS 3:3 SAVED JEWS
JAMES 4:4 FRIENDS OF WORLD


it seems to me that UNBELIEF is used for those that do not believe in God at all.
They are atheists in nature.

UNFAITHFUL is used for believers that have failed in their mission, or returned to unbelief (Romans 3:3)
or are believers that require a warning...like not being friendly with the world (James 4:4)


Please comment.

We can talk all we want. We can confess Him and confess to know Him. But denying Him (note the verse connections for "deny) in WORKS means all our talk and profession/confession is just (fill in your own word(s)).

Look at the language Paul uses for this: Such people are disgusting - they are worthless for every good work.

THEY ARE DISOBEDIENT.

These theologies that get "obedience" and "works" wrong have created a disaster for the Faith of Jesus Christ - the Faith He founded, completed (Heb12:2) and handed down to His Holy Ones (Jude1:3) - the Faith in which He lived in perfect obedience to our Father - perfect faithfulness (Heb3:1-2).

Agreed 100%

Jesus didn't just come to be our atonement...
He also meant to teach us to be useful for the Kingdom of God (here).

 

[Toknow]

These threads, as childish as they can get, can serve to get us to look ever-deeper into the Word to evaluate what's being said in regard to what Scripture says and doesn't say. If they didn't I'd likely not be involved in these games.

I've begun to ask a question of the Word I don't think I've asked before recently doing so.

I'm not being dogmatic, and I know of the unity in the Godhead, but we also know there is a subordination of Son to Father.

Our Father sent our Lord and first-born brother (Rom8:29) to save. In verse like John6:37 we're reading of our Father's will for our Lord. In John12:47-50 Jesus tells us He didn't come to judge, but to save, and that His Word would judge men in the last day. So, He tells us what our Father's will is and it is not our Father's will that Jesus cast out - force out - those who come to Him.

Here's my question - what is our Father doing?

• NKJ Rom11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
• NKJ Heb6:3 And this we will do if God permits.
  • Context is not being lazy and learning and growing to maturity as He commands us to do. At some point it looks to me like He may say, 'that's enough' - not permit the growth. Then the Text goes into a warning about falling away, no productivity, and being burned.
  • Reminds me of how He at some point may assist in the hardening of those who harden their hearts. The danger is where this leads - where we in effect take our disobedient, unfaithful selves.

I think that IF GOD PERMITS in Hebrews 6:3 just means that God will help Paul to do this teaching of maturing and those he teaches to accept the maturing process. Why would God not help??
I also am not progmatic about this understanding.

• NKJ 2Tim2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

All these warnings and conditional clauses IMO are not little games we get to play to protect OSAS.

Agreed.
Some are too flippant with God's word...not offering enough respect to what the writers were teaching
but, instead, attempt to make the NT state what it does not because it does not suit some.

I don't think we get to presume on our Holy and Righteous God who let this world descend into depravity based upon a test in the Garden and is said to deal with sinful/disobedient/unfaithful men in wrath.

Nor do I think we get to presume upon our Father who sent His Son and our first-born brother and Lord to die a horrible death on our behalf.

I do see a security in the Word. It's for those who do what He says and take part in His true grace (Titus2:11-12) in faith-obedience (many verses) and don't deny Him in works (Titus1:16).

Agreed 100%

 

[sawdust]

RE: LOSS in Hebrews3:

NKJ Hebrews3:16-19 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

• Hebrews says some “rebelled” and “sinned” in the wilderness.
• Hebrews says in parallel that they “did not obey.”
• Hebrews says in parallel that they “did not believe.”
• Therefore, unbelief is rebellion, sin, and disobedience — and therefore belief is obedience.

NKJ Heb4:3, 6, 11 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world….6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience…11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

• Those who believe enter God’s rest (Heb 4:3).
• Those who were disobedient did not enter God’s rest (Heb 4:6, 11).
• Hebrews 3:18–19 identifies this disobedience as unbelief.
• Therefore, belief is obedience, and unbelief is disobedience

So:

• Hebrews3:16-19 tell us “unbelief is rebellion, sin, and disobedience — and therefore belief is obedience”
• Hebrews4:3-11 tells us belief is obedience, and unbelief is disobedience and that there is a rest for those who believe/obey but not for those who disobey/don’t believe.

What about loss?

NKJ Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

• COMMAND TO BELIEVERS: CAREFULLY OBSERVE JESUS CHRIST WHOM WE CONFESS

2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.

• Jesus Christ was faithful to God

3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.

• Jesus Christ was counted worthy of more glory than faithful Moses

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

• God is the builder of all things

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• Jesus Christ is a Son of His own House[hold]
• CONDITIONAL STATEMENT FOR BELIEVERS:
  • We are Jesus Christ’s house[hold] IF INDEED/ONLY IF WE HOLD THE CONFIDENCE/BOLDNESS AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM UNTIL THE END
    • Notice this holding fast until the end in the context of faithfulness like Jesus Christ

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' 11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.'"

• For this reason - that we are Jesus Christ’s household ONLY IF we hold the confidence/boldness and the rejoicing of the hope firmly until the end – the Holy Spirit says: TODAY if you hear the His voice
• COMMAND TO BELIEVERS: DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS
  • Rebelliousness
  • Testing God
  • Going astray in your hearts
  • Not knowing God’s ways
  • Angers God
  • In wrath God will not allow such to enter His rest

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

• COMMAND TO BELIEVERS:
  • BEWARE/PAY CLOSE ATTENTION, brothers, so that there will not be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in withdrawng/distancing from the living God
  • rather, SUMMON/URGE STRONGLY/IMPLORE/ENCOURAGE one another each day, as long as it is called ‘today’ so none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

• Explanation of all that’s been said.
• CONDITIONAL STATEMENT FOR BELIEVERS:
  • We are sharers of the Christ IF ONLY/ONLY IF WE HOLD FAST THE HUPOSTASISFIRM UNTIL THE END
    • Hupostasis:
      • Can mean confidence but another word has already been translated as confidence/boldness in Heb3:6
      • Has already been used in Heb1:3 to speak of the underlying divine nature of God in the person of Jesus Christ.
        • What believers are to hold fast and firm until the end is just who and what Jesus Christ is – He’s the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s nature/essence

15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

• We can see that this is book-ending Heb3:7
• Today – [REPEATED] COMMAND TO BELIEVERS: DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION/REVOLT

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?

• Those who hardened their hearts to God’s voice – to what God said – were those who heard and rebelled/ provoked/angered/disobeyed

17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?

• They sinned
• God was angry with them for 40 years
• Their corpses ultimately fell in the wilderness

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

• God swore they – those who hardened their hearts = those who rebelled/provoked/angered/sinned = those who disobeyed, would not enter His rest

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

• Those who hardened their hearts = those who rebelled/provoked/angered/sinned = those who disobeyed = those who were in unbelief
  • Unbelief = hardened heart, rebellious, sinners, disobedient.

Now,

• We can explain this away with some dispensational theory.
• We can explain this away with some OSAS or Eternal Security theory.

But some of us take the lesson and apply it as it reads:

• It is a lesson about being faithful sons of the Household of the Faithful Son Jesus Christ.
• It explains very clearly that faithfulness is hearing and obeying/believing God
• It explains very clearly that disobeying God is not believing God & not believing God is disobeying God.
• It explains that disobeying God/not believing God is of self-hardened hearts, hearts hardened by sin's deceitfulness, sin, rebellion/revolt.
• It makes perfectly clear that holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling are COMMANDED:
  • To closely observe the Faithful Jesus Christ
  • To not harden their hearts
  • To pay close attention so there is no evil, unbelieving heart in any of them in/by withdrawing from the living God
  • To implore each other every day so they are not hardened as a result of sin’s deceitfulness
    • Note how they're commanded not to harden theirr hearts and to not let sin’s deceitfulness harden them.
      • IMO this means if we let sin deceive us and others, then we will harden our hearts an/or vice-versa.
  • It makes it perfectly clear that the future of believers is CONDITIONAL:
    • They are Christ’s Household only if they remain bold and rejoicing in hope until the end
    • They are sharers of Jesus Christ only if they retain until the end the fact that Jesus Christ is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s nature – God’s essence.
      • This is really just the same as what Paul says is the only foundation that can be built upon: Jesus is YHWH's Christ/King.
      • It's also argument for the deity of Jesus Christ

I seriously do not get any ‘Christian’ who sees this as a problem, who tries to explain it away, who thinks we do not have to obey God and that obedience to God is not that same as believing in God, who thinks there are no conditions placed upon ‘Christians’ to stay the course and to do so every day.

BTW & FWIW, I am aware of some teachings about the concept of who and what the sharers are here.

So where does it show, those who fell in the wilderness, were ever a people of faith? I can't see it in all the verses you quote. The Lord says "they always go astray and they don't know His ways". They don't sound like believers in any shape or form or at any time to me.

As far as I am concerned, it is crystal clear that those who belong to Christ are those who endure to the end. Those who do not endure, are not partakers of Christ.

Can you be both? You would have to be based on non-OSAS doctrine.

 

[Toknow]

Agree with how believing has been distorted.

It's interesting and sad watching some on here speak against mental assent and then just explain Faith in another form of mental assent.

Right.
Just wanted to say that, yes, faith alone is pretty much just mental assent.
The outcome is the same.
No good deeds which is what jesus taught...
No obedience to His word...
Neglect of his commandments.

I think the 1Cor15:1-4 "gospel" is part of the issue.

Those verses are just setting up Paul's argument about the vital importance of the resurrection to our Faith.

They are an excerpt of Paul's greater message that we can see in Acts13:16-41.

Paul's foundational message that is the only foundation that can be built upon is that Jesus is the Christ (1Cor3:10-11).

In Acts13:33 Paul references Psalm2 that explains who and what YHWH's Christ is. Maybe if they really understood this they'd know that belief with obedience is a farce:

NKJ Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD-YHWH and against His Anointed (Christ), saying, 3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: 6 "Yet I have set My King (ultimately Jesus Christ) On My holy hill of Zion." 7 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'" 10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

What is it we don't get about who our Lord Jesus Christ is?

Paul's foundation was to place in the minds of people the fact of who and what Jesus is - He's YHWH's Anointed/Christ King of all nations and the possessor of the ends of the earth.

This is who and what we believe in and there's absolutely no way that this biblical belief allows for anything but faithful obedience to Jesus Christ - to YHWH - and being and thinking and speaking and working as He requires of His creation.

 

[Toknow]

'Hears' is the correct translation.
'Sees' is incorrect.

The Messiah made a contrast to what the Father said:

Whoever does not hearken to Him will be destroyed.
Whoever does hearken to Him will live forever and ever.

Listen seems to be correct.
Thus HEARS which is more than just to listen....
to hear means to accept, to do as told.
Acts 3:23

Thanks.

 

[Cameron143]

When the unbeliever believes as commanded, the unbeliever simultaneously obeys the command to believe.

You have unbelievers incapable of believing until they are regenerate. We both know this is your theology and its insertion shows in your erroneous logic which I showed you how to correct.

All you're really saying as you continue trying is that unbelievers don't believe so unbelievers can't believe, which is just more logical error.

I haven't mentioned regeneration.

Your initial paragraph states that unbelievers believe and obey. I'm stating that unbelievers, by definition, do not believe. That's what makes them unbelievers. It's not only whether they can or not; they simply don't. One cannot be simultaneously a believer and an unbeliever. One cannot simultaneously believe and not believe. Part and parcel of being an unbeliever is that they don't believe. In other words, if someone believes, they are a believer.

 

[Toknow]

Many years ago an older Messianic Jewish lady shared that those “Filthy rags” were not abhorrent because of their nastiness. They were used as menstrual cloths and the fluids that they absorbed were an indication of a womb with no life, a “Dead womb” if you will. So, the focus was contrary to what many think. A dead womb vs one filled with new life.

isaiah 64:5-9
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways. Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved?
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, O LORD, Nor remember iniquity forever; Behold, look now, all of us are Your people.


The above is speaking about persons that live in sin...they're asking God not to remember thier iniquity...
iniquity means habitual sin...living a life of sin.

It says: All of us have become like one who is unclearn.....

Why persons post this as a proof text that our good deeds are worhtless to God..I have never understood.

 

[studier]

Being disqualified...

It's a bit odd to me why they're translating this as disqualified, other than how it works with context of competing and it does show up lexically as "unqualified".

I think is @Roger316 who brought up that it's a word that's used in metallurgy - assaying metals for purity and value. So its basic meaning is failing the test - not approved - and goes to lack of value and being worthless. See Prov25:4 & Is1:22.

When we look at it in Rom1:28 where it was translated along the way as "reprobate," IMO it's speaking of the God rejecters as seeing it of no value to have God in knowledge, so He gives them over to their minds that have no value.

It's also used in Heb6:8 to speak of land that is of no value.

I suppose disqualified is meaningful in some contexts, but I think it's weak.

What do you think of:

1 Corinthians 9:24
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

Some versions I have say "run in such a way as to earn the prize".

It's saying all runners run, so run to win [the prize].

There are other words in other verses that speak of all of us giving it our all.

Note how he also says to do this with self-control. He seems to be saying give it your all - be the best at self-control and doing what we're here to do. Col3:23-24 including Col3:25.

I looked up UNBELIEF and UNFAITHFUL in a concordance.

Will look at this a little later.

Agreed 100%

Jesus didn't just come to be our atonement...
He also meant to teach us to be useful for the Kingdom of God (here).

This is where all this focus on entering into salvation, losing it, etc. really wastes time and creates a wrong focus IMO.

Jesus came to set the entire creation back on course. Part of this is to create mature sons of God and siblings in Jesus' likeness who carry the name and nature of our Father.

I think Paul is dealing with this in Phil3 where he speaks of enemies of the cross of Christ. He's saying this in the context of pursuit of the high call above and beyond spiritual maturity. It's back to his running to win the prize mindset.

Point being he is saying the enemies of the atonement are in the end enemies of what Christ died to bring about - those beyond mature sons that do not stop until their last breath that he calls arriving at the resurrection - which he refers so as completion/perfection.

Bottom line, he didn't wallow around dealing with nonsense in his mind, but was in pursuit of glorifying God to the maximum because he understood the depth of what Christ died to accomplish.

 

[Toknow]

I haven't mentioned regeneration.

Your initial paragraph states that unbelievers believe and obey. I'm stating that unbelievers, by definition, do not believe. That's what makes them unbelievers. It's not only whether they can or not; they simply don't. One cannot be simultaneously a believer and an unbeliever. One cannot simultaneously believe and not believe. Part and parcel of being an unbeliever is that they don't believe. In other words, if someone believes, they are a believer.

An UNBELIEVER must believe and obey the gospel message in order to become saved.

If a person does not believe and obey the gospel message,,,he will never become saved.


Romans 10:15-17
15 How will they preach unless * they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.


1 peter 4:17
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

 

[Cameron143]

An UNBELIEVER must believe and obey the gospel message in order to become saved.

If a person does not believe and obey the gospel message,,,he will never become saved.


Romans 10:15-17
15 How will they preach unless * they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
1 peter 4:17
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

An unbeliever doesn't believe. No unbeliever has ever believed. Believers believe. Unbelievers need to become believers.

 

[Toknow]

So where does it show, those who fell in the wilderness, were ever a people of faith? I can't see it in all the verses you quote. The Lord says "they always go astray and they don't know His ways". They don't sound like believers in any shape or form or at any time to me.

As far as I am concerned, it is crystal clear that those who belong to Christ are those who endure to the end. Those who do not endure, are not partakers of Christ.

Can you be both? You would have to be based on non-OSAS doctrine.

Why do you believe Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land?

 

[Toknow]

An unbeliever doesn't believe. No unbeliever has ever believed. Believers believe. Unbelievers need to become believers.

HOW does an unbeliever become a believer?

 

[studier]

I haven't mentioned regeneration.

Your initial paragraph states that unbelievers believe and obey. I'm stating that unbelievers, by definition, do not believe. That's what makes them unbelievers. It's not only whether they can or not; they simply don't. One cannot be simultaneously a believer and an unbeliever. One cannot simultaneously believe and not believe. Part and parcel of being an unbeliever is that they don't believe. In other words, if someone believes, they are a believer.

We both know regen > believe is your presupposition. I saw it in your logic. I see it in this post.

I think you should go back and look at #10,378 & #10,379 one page pack. Simple versions.

If we get stuck in your loop, then an unbeliever doesn't believe, so an unbeliever cannot believe. (solution = regen > believe)

Then we have to deal with you change from cannot to "simply don't."

Can and some do. Jesus' command to unbelievers is not empty.

 

[sawdust]

Why do you believe Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land?

So Moses isn't saved? Guess that wasn't him on the mount of transfiguration after all.

Moses lost rewards, not salvation which, is exactly what we say.