Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

The reason your system ends in you can LOSE salvation if you don't obey enough is because you're mixing law that demands with grace that supplies. Paul says the law increases sin, not obedience (Rom 5:20) & where sin increases, grace doesn’t shrink. It super‑abounds! That alone destroys the idea that insufficient obedience can overthrow salvation.

You forgot the following verses:

Romans 6:1-12
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.



Paul is teaching that we are not to sin....
our old self has been crucified
we are to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ
we are told not to let sin reign in our body.
To be disobedient to Jesus' commandments...
is to sin.


And I don't have "a system".
Jesus taught loss of salvation,
Paul taught loss of salvation,
and it was taught throughout the early church until about the 1800s when perseverance of the saints became an idea that spread to some non-calvinist denominations,,,,
but which is not accepted by all denominations....in fact, mainline denominations believe in forfeiture of salvation.

Paul gives the clearest example in 1 Cor 3:15: the believer whose entire life's work burns up, who produces no lasting obedience, no enduring fruit, no visible perseverance & Paul still says, ""he himself will be saved."" That's because obedience belongs to sanctification, not justification.

Actually 1 cor 3:15 has nothing to do with a believer's works.

If one loses sanctificaiton...
Justification is also lost.


If one is set aside for service to God....
and does not obey God...
he becomes useless.


Salt can lose its saltiness:


Matthew 5:13
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

Grace saves, grace keeps, grace finishes. The house in Matt 7 falls because it had no foundation, not because the saved man didn't obey enough. When you mix law & grace, you end up with a salvation that depends on human performance. When you keep Paul's categories, you end up with a salvation that depends on faith alone in Christ alone.

Faith alone is not a biblical teaching.

The house fell because it was built on sand....
Jesus said it was built on sand because the foolish man did NOT ACT on the words of Jesus.

ACTING on the words of Jesus IS the foundation.


Matthew 7:25-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


The foolish man heard the words of Jesus but did NOT ACT on them.
The foolish man built his house on sand by not ACTING on the words of Jesus.


You are changing the very words of Jesus.

Faith alone is not biblical.
Did Jesus tell us to love our neighbor in Matthew's 2 great commandments?

 

[Roger316]

Are we not told the commandments of God are truth?

Psa119:151
You are near, O Lord,
And all Your commandments are truth.

Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
And Your law is truth.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
For all Your commandments are righteousness.

The Ten Commandments was written by the Holy Spirit of Truth Exo31:18 so how can we separate Truth from what God asks us to do if we love Him Exo20:6 John14:15 because they are Truth according to God.

You are smuggling in a premise that isn't implied in the verses. While it is true that all of the commandments are "truth" in one sense, it is not true that "all truth must be obeyed."

When it says that all the commandments are truth, it means that the commandments are reliable, faithful, and trustworthy." All the commandments are trustworthy, but not all of the commandments are obligatory.

It is not obligatory for Gentiles to commemorate the Seventh Day of Creation. Now, both Jews and Gentiles look forward to a New Heavens and a New Earth.

 

[Mem]

NKJ Titus1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled (perfect tense participle) and unbelieving (apistos - unfaithful) nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess (homologeó) to know God, but in works they deny (same word as 2Tim2:12-13; Matt10:33) Him, being abominable (repugnant, detestable, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified (worthless) for every good work.

• I don't think Paul is saying unbelieving with apistos.
• From all the work showing how faith/belief is parallel with obedience - I see the sense of unbelief in his mention of "disobedient"
• There is some interesting mixture of verb, adjectives, participle going on here:
  • Perfect tense participle (adjectival) - Whatever happened sometime in the past to these men - their current state was being defiled men (compared to clean men).
  • These same currently defiled men are described as unfaithful men (adjective)
  • It now switches to a singular - the mind & the conscienceof them has been/is defiled.
    • This is probably saying the same thing happened to all of them
  • It now switches to what they're doing in this defiled and unfaithful state - they are confessing/professing to know God - and in works they are denying/repudiating
    • My Note: we might consider those who say good works are not a must for Christians
  • It now switches to describing them by their actions - they're being disgusting men, disobedient men, worthless men pros every good work
    • My Note: we seem to spend a lot of time debating 'work' vs. 'works' - but Paul has used both here

Here's my observations/thoughts:

• Paul is speaking about faithfulness
• Something has taken place for them to become or remain unfaithful
• Their singular mind and conscience have become and are now defiled
• They are professing to know God
  • I'd suggest they are professing belief in God
• They are denying/repudiating [God] in/by works
• They're being disgusting, disobedient and worthless men toward every good work
  • Since there is so much Scripture that show faith & obedience are parallel - I think it's legitimate that they're being disobedient/unbelieving
• As I look through Scripture and the way it uses pistos & apistos - I see what looks like faith-obedience becoming faithfulness
  • I don't think they're parallel like I see faith/obedience
  • Here, with Paul saying they're defiled & unfaithful - they can only be functioning in disobedience/unbelief because belief/obedience > faithful.
  • IOW:
    • Something took place > they are now defiled & unfaithful men < they're being hypocrites (professing & denying), being disgusting men, being disobedient[/unbelieving] men, they being worthless men for any good work
    • The central focus is their current unfaithful state
    • It's bracketed by something that happened to defile them & by what they're currently doing that shows their unfaithfulness

As offered before, I have all the verses compiled that use pistos, apistos, apistia. It's just under 100 verses and 7 pages with a few notes, if you'd like me to try to pdf a copy.

One note here in the context of this thread; It's not good to put it mildly to be siding with anything that rejects the necessity of believers being obedient, doing good works, being faithful to God.

It's not that unbelievers professing to know God don't do any work, it's that their work is disgusting to God because their work is done in unfaithfulness, so it is not any 'good work.' For example, Paul thought he was doing God a favor when traveled far and near in order to persecute Christians. That is until he asked, "Who are You?" and heard, "I am Jesus, the one you persecute."

 

[Toknow]

He maybe an OSAS believer? They only believe a part of Scripture.

I believe he's calvinist but some of them are reluctant to admit it.
So we have to do the beat around the bush dance.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You are smuggling in a premise that isn't implied in the verses. While it is true that all of the commandments are "truth" in one sense, it is not true that "all truth must be obeyed."

When it says that all the commandments are truth, it means that the commandments are reliable, faithful, and trustworthy." All the commandments are trustworthy, but not all of the commandments are obligatory.

It is not obligatory for Gentiles to commemorate the Seventh Day of Creation. Now, both Jews and Gentiles look forward to a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Well I wish you well with that.

1 John2:4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Psa119:151
You are near, O Lord,
And all Your commandments are truth.

Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
And Your law is truth.

God gave us His Truth so we can walk in them, we can choose to or not, but we can't change His Truth, we can just deny it and keep our own truth instead. 2Tim 4:3-4

 

[Toknow]

You are smuggling in a premise that isn't implied in the verses. While it is true that all of the commandments are "truth" in one sense, it is not true that "all truth must be obeyed."

When it says that all the commandments are truth, it means that the commandments are reliable, faithful, and trustworthy." All the commandments are trustworthy, but not all of the commandments are obligatory.

It is not obligatory for Gentiles to commemorate the Seventh Day of Creation. Now, both Jews and Gentiles look forward to a New Heavens and a New Earth.

How about the other commandments Roger 316?

Is this the only commandment of the 10?

Are you aware that the other 9 commandments are MORAL in nature....+
and Sabbath worship is CEREMONIAL in nature?

Are Christians required to follow the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic Covenant?

 

[Toknow]

Well I wish you well with that.

1 John2:4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

God gave us His Truth so we can walk in them, we can choose to or not, but we can't change His Truth, we can just deny it and keep our own truth instead.

I trust you noticed that Roger 316 stated that not all commandments must be obeyed.

These offer lip service to God...
but their heart if far from Him.


Matthew 15:7-8
7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.


I believe it's important to stay on these threads in order to post what Jesus taught.
NOT what some THINK He taught.

 

[Mem]

We're on different wavelengths. Appreciate the discussion.

Grace and peace.

ToKnot or not ToKnot, that is the question.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

How about the other commandments Roger 316?

Is this the only commandment of the 10?

Are you aware that the other 9 commandments are MORAL in nature....+
and Sabbath worship is CEREMONIAL in nature?

Are Christians required to follow the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic Covenant?

Sorry, this is not true- all of God's commandments are righteous Psa119:172 including the 4th commandment Isa56:1-2 and His righteousness is everlasting to everlasting Psa119:142 the foundation of His throne Psa 89:14 which God included the 4th commandment Isa66:22-23 because there will never be a time when God doesn't want us to join ourselves to the LORD and serve Him Isa56:6 or not spend sacred time with His children on the day He designated- why the Sabbath-rest remains for God's people Heb4:9NIV and continues on for eternity thus saith the LORD Isa66:22-23

We do not get to decide what God deems as moral or not, He never made a mistake with one of the Ten Commandments written by the Holy Spirit of Truth that included the one commandment He said Remember- so it means we ought not to forget it but to keep/guard the way He said because it came with the power of God's Blessing Exo20:11 Isa56:2 and sanctification Gen2:3 Eze20:12 that we just can't do ourselves Isa66:17, we need God Eze20:20 Rev14:7 Exo20:11

 

[Toknow]

Because it's a question that begs for hard lines to not cross....and instead of fulfilling the desire of being able to put a label on specific actions it puts the question on your real identity of who you are and who you really want to be.

Specific actions doesn't necessarily expose people's selfish desires....AKA their heart....but identity does. And self made "leaders" do not want to be exposed for who they really are.

This is so true.
An action means nothing if it is not done if faith to God.

Except for who is benefitting from the good action, of course.

CIP is two missionaries from the USA.
One was indeed the first missionary but unheralded and one was highly touted to be America's first missionary.
George Lyle was God's CHOSEN first missionary but Adoniram Judson was given that honor among men.
Their success rates are the tell. George (native born in America) was highly successful in America in converting and church planting until he had to escape the Colonials who wished to enslave him and his family. (George had never been a slave) He got a ride with escaping British soldiers who put him off in Jamaica where he founded over 11,000 churches. Judson went to India where he failed miserably after 20 years of trying and losing his wife and children to illnesses. He finally returned with one half converted Hindu man. However, he had several churches and missionary programs named after him.

Today, nobody really talks a lot about George Lyle or his family much out of embarrassment in America....but he truly was Chosen by God to do great things.

Judson? Heralded by millions of people over the past 250 years and mostly a failure on many counts. Judson was always a believer in God but what was termed a "Deist" as he subscribed to no particular denomination. He was preached at until he converted to becoming a Virginia Baptist and ultimately became their first missionary sent abroad.

George? Came out of nowhere and was instantly successful. Always under persecution.

Judson? Completely contrived and formally taught. Heralded from the moment of his conversion by his peers.

Judson was "called"
Lyle was "Chosen"

People don't like the reality-based understanding because it's too revealing. Pointing to which side of an egg you crack first before you eat it is a much more simple way of pointing out who is possibly the worst sinner amongst us. Nevermind the worthlessness of such a thing.

Jesus said as much.
He said to do what we do for God in private....
praying, fasting, giving financial help.

I do think that it's sometimes difficult to know what God wants from us.
I'd say that it's important to take the christian hypocratic oath:
DO NO HARM!
And then, I guess, just do the best we can.

 

[Toknow]

Sorry, this is not true- all of God's commandments are righteous Psa119:172 including the 4th commandment Isa56:1-2 and His righteousness is everlasting to everlasting Psa119:142 including the 4th commandment Isa66:22-23 because there will never be a time when God doesn't want us to join ourselves to the LORD and serve Him Isa56:6 or not spend sacred time with His children on the day He designated- why the Sabbath-rest remains for God's people Heb4:9NIV and continues on for eternity thus saith the LORD Isa66:22-23

We do not get to decide what God deems as moral or not, He never made a mistake with the Ten Commandments written by the Holy Spirit of Truth that included the one commandment He said Remember- so it means we ought not to forget it but to keep/guard the way He said because it came with the power of God's Blessing Exo20:11 Isa56:2 and sanctification Gen2:3 Eze20:12 that we just can't do ourselves, we need God Eze20:20 Rev14:7 Exo20:11

Those that worship on the Sabbath believe that the 4th is also moral in nature.
I'm not here to discuss this as it is a very complicated topic and I've come to the conclusion that we can only serve our understanding and our conscience before God.

The other member conveniently chose the 4th because not all obey it.
This was my point, in fact.

And yes, REMEMBER, in Greek means a lot more than what the English definiton is...
so I'm pretty torn about this...but cannot do better than I do with it.

 

[Roger316]

What you've posted is a good definition of faithfulness as derived from Webster's Dictionary.

It is not how faithfulness is understood in biblical terms.

God is faithful to Himself.

2 Timothy 2:13
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

God is faithful....this is about keeping His word, His promises.
Nothing to do with obedience.
Correct.

Correct. And it is a case in point for what I said.

But are we as Jesus followers also to be faithful?
In this case obedience is being faithful.

In General, I agree. But we need to add loyalty and love to that equation.

There are many reasons someone might obey another person. I might be an employee, willingly obeying my employer as a condition of my employment. I might be a servant in a large household, willingly obeying my Lord as a condition of remaining in the house. I might be a slave, coerced into obedience under the threat of punishment. In any case, my obedience and faithfulness is motivated by fear of punishment.

Jesus followers obey him, not out of fear of punishment, but out of love and loyalty to him.

We are faithful to God....in keeping HIS commandments.
Keeping the commandments IS faithfulness.

I know what you mean but I think it is worth mentioning a concept that many Christians overlook. Keeping a commandment is substantially different than doing a commandment. Just as in the examples of obedience that I listed above, a man's obedience of an employer, or a Lord of a house, or a slave owner is not necessarily motivated by love and loyalty. Maybe, but not necessarily so.

On the other hand, keeping a commandment is more than complying with a rule. Keeping a commandment is to cherish and value it. If I am keeping a commandment, I like it, I agree with it, I would keep it even if the Lord were away on a business trip. I hold it in my heart because it has value for me.

 

[Cameron143]

A person can believe aiding the poor is a good thing and give to the poor without being a believer in Christ.And God is pleased with this conscience-driven alms-giving, Cornelius in Acts being an example.

Everyone has faith. The problem is that most choose foolish objects for their faith.

God is pleased when not only actions are right, but the motivation behind them is also right. Cornelius acted out of a fear of the Lord. Fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom. Wisdom alone comes from God. God is already at work in Cornelius for this to be true. God further communicated with Cornelius to have him send for Peter. The question is: was God responding to Cornelius, or was Cornelius responding to God?

I believe the latter. Men don't approach God in their natural estate except as natural fallen man. It is not until God approaches man that change in man is effected. God moves sovereignly in the affairs of man. He is no respecter of persons. He does as He pleases.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Those that worship on the Sabbath believe that the 4th is also moral in nature.
I'm not here to discuss this as it is a very complicated topic and I've come to the conclusion that we can only serve our understanding and our conscience before God.

The other member conveniently chose the 4th because not all obey it.
This was my point, in fact.

And yes, REMEMBER, in Greek means a lot more than what the English definiton is...
so I'm pretty torn about this...but cannot do better than I do with it.

God placed the 4th commandment in the same unit as only worship Him, not vain His name don't bow to idols and the 4th commandment reveals which God we are to only worship Exo20:11 Rev14:7 and applies the first 3 commandments to. We as humans can't dismantle one of His commandments without dismantling them all as they are all interconnected. And in doing so than which voice is one following.

We keep looking at Hebrews 3 to show that rebellion, sin, disobedience and unbelief are all used interchangeably but we are missing the bigger picture.

What cost an entire generation from entering their promise land filled will milk and honey that they were promised if they love God will all their heart, mind and soul and kept God's commandments- we can see the condition plainly here Deut 6:3-9

So while we may bypass what was their rebellion in the wilderness that kept this generation out of their promised rest it won't do us any good unless we study it, learn from it and not follow in that same example of disobedience as we are plainly told.

Heb 4:11Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

The Bible plainly tells us they rebelled against Him in the wilderness Heb3:7-19

So what was their rebellion in the wilderness? The Bible tells us- what Hebrews and David are quoting

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them

And what reason did God give why this whole generation could not enter into His promise land/rest full of milk and honey. He tells us again plainly

Eze 20: 15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.

So this verse tells us a few things- one the condition of the Israelites receiving their promised rest was loving God will all their heart, mind and soul Deut6:3-5 which is the greatest commandment and there is no commandment greater Mark12:30-31 and that included the 4th commandment because they profaned God's Sabbath instead of keeping it holy as He commanded they were not able to enter into their promised rest and land full of milk and honey. God related this commandment to breaking another commandment- idol worship because God commanded us to keep the Sabbath day holy, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God Exo20:8-11 the holy day of the LORD thus saith the LORD. Isa58:13 God could not have been more clear on this had He wrote it out Himself and He did! Exo31:18 so if we are replacing the God of the Bible's voice with another this is idol worship why breaking one of these commandments in the NT we still break them all James2:10-12

So in the New Testaments we are told plainly not to follow in this same path of disobedience- God does not show partiality Rom2:11 He does not change Mal3:6 so it seems dangerous in my view to not take this warning serious - that we can follow in the same path of disobedience and expect a different result when we were plainly told not to. We have yet to enter into our promise land Rev22:14KJV

 

[Cameron143]

Your statements are riddled with equivocations.

A. "An unbeliever doesn't believe". Do you mean,
1. "An unbeliever is someone who is not presently believing"? Or,
2. "An unbeliever is someone who will never believe"? Or,
3. "An unbeliever is someone who has not believed yet"?

B. "No unbeliever has ever believed."
If you mean 1 above, this is not true.
If you mean 2 above, this is not true.
If you mean 3 above, this is not true.

C. "Believers believe." Do you mean
4. "Believers are people who are presently believing? Or,
5. "Believers are people who are always believing"? Or,
6. "Believers are people who will eventually believe?

D. "Unbelievers need to become believers."
If you mean 4 above, this is true.
If you mean 5 above, this assumes a believer cannot stop believing, which does not match reality.
If you mean 6 above, this conflicts with 2 and 3 above.

So, it seems that you could only possibly believe 1 above, i.e. "An unbeliever is someone who is not presently believing."
Your statement, "No unbeliever has ever believed," is unsound, as people can stop believing.
You believe 4 above, i.e. "Believers are people who are presently believing?
You believe unbelievers are presently believing and need to become those who are presently believing.

5 conflicts with D.
6. Conflicts with 1.

So, by precess of elimination, you must believe that -
"An unbeliever is someone who is not presently believing."
"Believers are people who are presently believing". And,
"Unbelievers are presently not believing and need to become those who are presently believing."

In which case, we agree. Those who are putting their faith in unprofitable objects instead of in Christ need to choose to make Christ the object of their faith.

In the estate of unbelief, there is no belief. So no unbeliever believes. Only believers believe. The real question is how one goes from being an unbeliever to becoming a believer.

 

[Roger316]

Everything about Christianity is about accepting and agreeing to the rules.

If we agree to the rules....
it also means we will keep the rules.

Do YOU accept a condition you know full well you will not be keeping??

How much more severe if we trample underfoot the Son of God?

I disagree. Jesus was not a rule keeper. He harvested grain on the Sabbath, healed on the Sabbath, told a man to carry his mat, and made mud out of saliva. He obeyed God's law; but violated their law.

When Jesus says, “You have heard it said, but I say to you,” He is not revising the law but revealing its true depth. He moves righteousness from external rule-keeping to internal transformation, from minimal compliance to maximal love. This formulaic pattern asserts His divine authority and teaches that true obedience flows from a heart aligned with God’s character, not from adherence to human interpretations or surface-level rules.

 

[JohnDB]

This is so true.
An action means nothing if it is not done if faith to God.

Except for who is benefitting from the good action, of course.

Jesus said as much.
He said to do what we do for God in private....
praying, fasting, giving financial help.

I do think that it's sometimes difficult to know what God wants from us.
I'd say that it's important to take the christian hypocratic oath:
DO NO HARM!
And then, I guess, just do the best we can.

But....
We have the Beatitudes as well....
"Blessed are the pure/holy in heart for they shall see God"

Pure of heart....AKA holy of heart or in more common terms a "single minded fanatical"
The quote doesn't discuss a time in the future but an If-then scenario of if the condition is accomplished then the result is also enabled upon completion of the condition.

"If you are pure of heart you are seeing God".

But of course we do not want this sort of thing to be discussed among the common people Because that would mean an end to the "leadership class" and ultimately their end of feasting upon the sheep.

What would happen if we KNEW certain people could actually see God actively working and compared that with what we seen our leaders (spiritual and otherwise) doing on a consistent basis?

Membership in church is not mandatory....
Pastoral staff is a highly politically driven position by an all voluntary community.
And not subject to be changed anytime soon.

Power attracts the corruptible....it doesn't corrupt in and of itself. And slowly over time the inexcusable has become not only tolerated but venerated as superior. Because that's what leadership has taught. Because there aren't many people who have become Holy of Heart or understood as being such by the people.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I disagree. Jesus was not a rule keeper. He harvested grain on the Sabbath, healed on the Sabbath, told a man to carry his mat, and made mud out of saliva. He obeyed God's law; but violated their law.

When Jesus says, “You have heard it said, but I say to you,” He is not revising the law but revealing its true depth. He moves righteousness from external rule-keeping to internal transformation, from minimal compliance to maximal love. This formulaic pattern asserts His divine authority and teaches that true obedience flows from a heart aligned with God’s character, not from adherence to human interpretations or surface-level rules.

Jesus was a commandment-keeper John15:10 including the 4th commandment. Luke4:16

What He did not do is follow man-made traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments- this is something He condemned. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

He did not follow the man-made rules the Pharisees added to God's commandments and on the Sabbath and either should we, which is no different than keeping the first day holy which is a tradition of man over keeping the Sabbath day holy which is a commandment of God. Exo20:8-11 Just like we do today we make rules and laws about our man-made sabbath- no buying/selling on the first day all the man-made blue laws that are not written in our Bibles. Nothing has changed.

 

[Roger316]

Well I wish you well with that.

1 John2:4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Psa119:151
You are near, O Lord,
And all Your commandments are truth.

Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
And Your law is truth.

God gave us His Truth so we can walk in them, we can choose to or not, but we can't change His Truth, we can just deny it and keep our own truth instead. 2Tim 4:3-4

Proof texts aren't helpful. Try to understand what the verses mean from within their context.

 

[Toknow]

Correct. And it is a case in point for what I said.

In General, I agree. But we need to add loyalty and love to that equation.

Add loyalty.
That makes it even better.
There are even other adjectives that describe faithfulness.

DEVOTION
RELIABILITY
STEADFASTNESS


and more...
and all demonstrated by ACTION.


Faith without action is a dead faith.

There are many reasons someone might obey another person. I might be an employee, willingly obeying my employer as a condition of my employment. I might be a servant in a large household, willingly obeying my Lord as a condition of remaining in the house. I might be a slave, coerced into obedience under the threat of punishment. In any case, my obedience and faithfulness is motivated by fear of punishment.

But obey you must if you want to

continue to be employed...
if you want to continue to remain in the house,
if you do not want to be punished....

Some might obey God out of love....
some out of fear....

but obedience is necessary,.....whatever the reason for it,
God will respect it.


James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Jesus followers obey him, not out of fear of punishment, but out of love and loyalty to him.

I would hope so.
But not necessarily.

What is certain is that God demands obedience.

John 8:39 IF YOU WERE ABRAHAM'S CHILDREN...YOU WOULD DO WHAT ABRAHAM DID.

What did Abraham do?


John 8:47 HE WHO BELONGS TO GO DOES AS GOD SAYS.

What does God say to do?

I know what you mean but I think it is worth mentioning a concept that many Christians overlook. Keeping a commandment is substantially different than doing a commandment. Just as in the examples of obedience that I listed above, a man's obedience of an employer, or a Lord of a house, or a slave owner is not necessarily motivated by love and loyalty. Maybe, but not necessarily so.

Please explain the difference between DOING a commandment and KEEPING a commandment.

On the other hand, keeping a commandment is more than complying with a rule. Keeping a commandment is to cherish and value it. If I am keeping a commandment, I like it, I agree with it, I would keep it even if the Lord were away on a business trip. I hold it in my heart because it has value for me.

I don't believe wer'e supposed to agree with God's commandments.
Are we to keep only the commandments we agree with??
I'm sorry, I'm not understanding...I don't think this is what you mean.
We only keep the commandments that have value for us?