Loss of salvation???

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Amen! Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" choosing to believe the gospel.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. ✝️

The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The gospel is hid to those who DO NOT BELIEVE. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Actually, foundationally, the Gospel is the message that Jesus is the Christ. In choosing to believe and so obey this message, God provides for us to enter into relationship with Himself and His Son to whom has been given all authority in Heaven and on earth - the Son to whom all knees shall bow.

When we don't explain who and what He is, we skip over what Paul calls the only foundation that can be built upon.

This is part of why so many have so much problem with the mention of 'obedience'. They were never oriented to it in the first place.

Then, as you've done here, you minimize the importance of the good works He newly created His Children to do under grace through faith, which is also obedience to Him.

Start with Paul's actual evangelism in Acts13:16-41 and follow him in Scripture references, especially Acts13:33 to Psalm2 to learn a little about the Christ Paul was making certain his Jewish and Gentile hearers would know and understand.
 
Sorry, I don't even know what this means. It reads like an argument against obey God.
My response was an exegetical explanation for "the obedience of faith." It refers to the moment when we entrust ourselves to the truth of the Gospel. The phrase "obedience of faith" is not obeying a command, not performing a duty, but ceasing our resistance to the Gospel.

For instance, the gospel says that I am an evil sinner in need of God's grace. I resist that idea because I want to see myself as an upright, moral, and nice guy. But I obey the gospel when I change my mind and begin to agree with it.

It’s about orientation, not performance. So “obedience of faith” means: the turning‑toward‑God that happens when you believe. It’s the heart’s pivot, not the hand’s action.
 
Yes sir.

See here,,,post 10,495 .....


As I just said to @Roger316:
Of course God has rules for His Children let alone His entire Creation. It numbs my mind to read anything that remotely suggests that He doesn't.
I really don't get the evasiveness and minimizing. I do actually - just being rhetorical.
 
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He is our Savior who is our example to follow who told us plainly to do His sayings Mat5:19-30 Luke6:46-48

This is always such a sad argument reducing Jesus to only being good for what He can do for us when He lived to show us how to live righteously 1John2:6 1Peter 2:21-22 Heb4:15 and whose words we are to live by Mat4:4

He tells us everything we need to know, its not that He was not clear, the issue is the same as those who came before us. Heb3:7-19
Perhaps you have me confused with someone else because I didn't make the argument that you suggested.

Rather, I was making an exegetical point based on proper Bible study technique. Namely, we ask a few basic questions such as "who is speaking, who is his audience, and what is the context?"
 
That isn't true. The idea that “obedience is obedience, whatever the motive, and God respects it” is not just shallow; it’s biblically false and logically incoherent.

Scripture never treats all obedience as equal. The Bible distinguishes sharply between:
  • obedience that flows from love
  • obedience that flows from fear
  • obedience that is merely external
  • obedience that is hypocritical
  • obedience that is self‑righteous
  • obedience that is manipulative
  • obedience that is coerced

You complicate christianity Roger.
There are only two requirements to being saved:


1. Believe IN God.
2. Obey God.

Your list is not important since God sees obedience.
FLOWS FROM LOVE.....IDEAL, GOOD
FLOWS FROM FEAR.....UNFORTUNATE FOR THE PERSON, BUT HE IS OBEYING
MERELY EXTERNAL....WOULD REQUIRE SOME CLARIFICATION...HOW IS OBEDIENCE EXTERNAL?? IS THIS A BELIEVER??
HYPOCRITICAL....YOU LOVE 1 COR 3:15 EVEN THOUGH YOU DO MISUNDERSTAND IT (SORRY) SO APPLY TO THIS
SELF RIGHTEOUS....YOU SURE DO DEMAND A LOT FROM A CHRISTIAN ! MAYBE SOME IS SELF-RIGHTEOUS BUT WE'RE STILL OBEYING
MANIPULATIVE...WOULD REQUIRE CONFESSION
COERCED....???


Jesus condemns entire categories of “obedience”:
  • “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.”

Yes sir.
Right now...YOU sound like one of them.
And some others on this very thread that have condemned me to hell for wanting to obey God and have offered some lively insults...
they honor God with their lips, but are far from Him.

YOU seem to want to debate obedience to God,,,
goind so far as to have an intellectual discussion re whether or not faith and obedience is the same.

WHY?
Seems you're having difficult accepting plain and clear scripture.
Why complicate Christianity?


  • “You tithe mint and dill… but neglect justice and mercy.”
  • “You clean the outside of the cup…”
  • “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees…”
See above.

If all obedience were acceptable “whatever the reason,” Jesus would never say these things.
Jesus meant that we are to have a changed heart.
HOW do you think our righteousness could exceed that of the pharisees if not by heart obedience?
Cleaning the inside of the cup is the same.
From your list above...I see coerced obedience as being problematic.


Obedience without love is not righteousness -- it's compliance

Fear‑based obedience is not moral transformation.
It’s behavioral management.
If a person fears God...he will necessarily be transformed.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
Respect has a certain amount of fear woven in.

It produces:
  • resentment
  • self‑righteousness
  • anxiety
  • hypocrisy
  • spiritual exhaustion
And how do you know this?


It does not produce Christlikeness.

Yes sir.
And neither will disobedience produce Christlikeness.
THIS is apparent just form being on this forum.

Paul is following Jesus
We follow either Jesus or Paul

Following either one should lead to a behavioral change.
If everyone on this thread is following Jesus or Paul...
why do we see such unchristlike behavior?

Because obedience is taken out of the teachings of the NT
and only lip service is offered.

The New Covenant is explicitly about heart transformation, not external conformity. If the heart is unchanged, the “obedience” is not the thing God is after.
Agreed.
Who said differently?

And yet, even those that think they have a transformed heart...
are not in conformity to Jesus' teachings externally.



Obedience from fear is the obedience of slaves. Paul makes this distinction explicit:
  • “You did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear.”
  • “But the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, ‘Abba! Father!’”

Fear‑based obedience belongs to the old covenant, not the new. God does not “respect” obedience that comes from the wrong covenantal posture.

The Motive is part of the moral act. This is a crucial philosophical point. A moral act is not defined only by the external behavior.

It includes:
  • the intention
  • the desire
  • the will
  • the love (or lack of it) behind the act

If someone “obeys” God in order to:

  • avoid punishment
  • gain leverage
  • earn favor
  • look righteous
  • manipulate outcomes

That is not obedience.
It is self‑interest wearing religious clothing.

God does not respect that.
Jesus explicitly condemns it.

True obedience flows from Love. Paul says: "Love is the fulfillment of the Law."

Not fear.
Not compliance.
Not external conformity.

Love.

This is why Jesus says: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

He does not say:




Love is the engine of obedience. Fear may produce behavior, but it cannot produce righteousness. Obedience is not morally neutral. God does not respect obedience that comes from fear, manipulation, self‑righteousness, or external compliance. In the New Covenant, true obedience flows from love, trust, and a transformed heart. Anything less may look like obedience on the outside, but it is not the righteousness God desires.
Enough about this.
You're just repeating.

The meaning of the word "keep" is similar to that of a "keepsake". The word “keep” in Scripture (tēreō in Greek, shamar in Hebrew) already carries the semantic field of cherishing, guarding, treasuring, protecting. That’s exactly what we do with a keepsake. I would argue that keeping a law shares the same inner posture as keeping a keepsake.
Agreed.

But some take the word KEEP and tell me that to keep the commandments means that we have to be 100% perfect.
You see Roger....there's a problem in the Christian religion.
Words are becoming irrelevant and the meaning changes according to who is speaking them.

Same words.
Different dictionary.


The main issue is the inner posture. Remember when Paul said that a Jew is one inwardly? He was noting the difference between a man who is circumcised on the outside with a man who is circumcised on the inside. So, when Jesus talks about keeping his commandments, he isn't talking about obeying his rules; he is talking about remembering, valuing, guarding, and preserving his teaching.
Ah. And there you go.

Jesus didn't mean TO ACTUALLY KEEP the commandments.
May it never be !!

He just meant to guard them, remember them.

You did say that it means preserving HIS TEACHINGS.

WHICH teachings would those be?
 
As I just said to @Roger316:

I really don't get the evasiveness and minimizing. I do actually - just being rhetorical.
It goes beyond minimizing.
The message actually sounds like there's no need to obey.

Why else debate it??

I keep hearing about a heart change (which indeed is correct Christian theology)
but then I don't see the corresponding BEHAVIOR on this and other threads....

so I have to ask how is this heart change exhibited?
Does the external behavior reflect this heart change?
If it does, there's a problem in Christianity.

When we can have a debate as to whether or not faith and obedience are intertwined,
there's a problem in Christianity.
 
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My response was an exegetical explanation for "the obedience of faith." It refers to the moment when we entrust ourselves to the truth of the Gospel. The phrase "obedience of faith" is not obeying a command, not performing a duty, but ceasing our resistance to the Gospel.

For instance, the gospel says that I am an evil sinner in need of God's grace. I resist that idea because I want to see myself as an upright, moral, and nice guy. But I obey the gospel when I change my mind and begin to agree with it.

It’s about orientation, not performance. So “obedience of faith” means: the turning‑toward‑God that happens when you believe. It’s the heart’s pivot, not the hand’s action.
When the heart changes....
the performance changes.
 
Perhaps you have me confused with someone else because I didn't make the argument that you suggested.

Rather, I was making an exegetical point based on proper Bible study technique. Namely, we ask a few basic questions such as "who is speaking, who is his audience, and what is the context?"
The Bible is not divided up the way people claim where only approx. 20% "applies" to us and the rest we can toss. I have heard this argument before and its dangerous.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This idea that what Jesus taught is for other people is a very sad deception. Jesus is God and we are to live by His every Word Mat4:4. We are told the saints keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus Rev14:12 not just "in" which is how Jesus lived and what He taught that was His faith and why He is our example.
 
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I believe he's calvinist but some of them are reluctant to admit it.
So we have to do the beat around the bush dance.
Yeah, I’m not so good with the dancing part, and I am not so good in identifying who is what. Lol
 
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The Bible is not divided up the way people claim where only approx. 20% "applies" to us and the rest we can toss. I have heard this argument before and its dangerous.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This idea that what Jesus taught is for other people is a very sad deception. Jesus is God and we are to live by His every Word Mat4:4. We are told the saints keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus Rev14:12 not just "in" which is how Jesus lived and what He taught that was His faith and why He is our example.

Great point !!
 
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The Bible is not divided up the way people claim where only approx. 20% "applies" to us and the rest we can toss. I have heard this argument before and its dangerous.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This idea that what Jesus taught is for other people is a very sad deception. Jesus is God and we are to live by His every Word Mat4:4. We are told the saints keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus Rev14:12 not just "in" which is how Jesus lived and what He taught that was His faith and why He is our example.
Not only do some accept only what they like and ignore all the rest...
but scripture is actually changed (it's meaning) to comply to the belief system of the poster.
I suppose this does demand a certain amount of talent...
to bad it's eisegesis and not exegesis, and does not properly represent the teachings of the NT.
 
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You forgot the following verses:

Romans 6:1-12
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.




Paul is teaching that we are not to sin....
our old self has been crucified
we are to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ
we are told not to let sin reign in our body.
To be disobedient to Jesus' commandments...
is to sin.


And I don't have "a system".
Jesus taught loss of salvation,
Paul taught loss of salvation,
and it was taught throughout the early church until about the 1800s when perseverance of the saints became an idea that spread to some non-calvinist denominations,,,,
but which is not accepted by all denominations....in fact, mainline denominations believe in forfeiture of salvation.


Actually 1 cor 3:15 has nothing to do with a believer's works.

If one loses sanctificaiton...
Justification is also lost.


If one is set aside for service to God....
and does not obey God...
he becomes useless.


Salt can lose its saltiness:


Matthew 5:13
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.


Faith alone is not a biblical teaching.

The house fell because it was built on sand....
Jesus said it was built on sand because the foolish man did NOT ACT on the words of Jesus.

ACTING on the words of Jesus IS the foundation.


Matthew 7:25-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."



The foolish man heard the words of Jesus but did NOT ACT on them.
The foolish man built his house on sand by not ACTING on the words of Jesus.


You are changing the very words of Jesus.

Faith alone is not biblical.
Did Jesus tell us to love our neighbor in Matthew's 2 great commandments?
You're taking passages about sanctification (Rom 6), discipleship (Matt 5) & kingdom ethics (Matt 7) & using them to redefine justification. Scripture doesn't do that. Paul never does that. Jesus never does that. The categories stay distinct.

Romans 6 is not Paul warning believers they might lose justification. It's Paul explaining why the already justified believer should not continue in sin. The entire chapter assumes the believer is already: united with Christ (Rom 6:5), freed from sin's penalty (Rom 6:7) & alive to God (Rom 6:11). Paul is describing the walk, not the foundation. Sanctification, not justification. If Romans 6 were about losing salvation, Paul contradict Rom 5:1, 5:9, 8:1, 8:30.

You said: ""1 Cor 3:15 has nothing to do with a believer’s works.""

Paul literally says: each one's work will be tested (Vs.13). if anyone's work is burned up (Vs.15). he himself will be saved (Vs.15).

A believer can produce zero lasting obedience & still be saved, because salvation is not based on obedience.

Matt 5 & Matt 7 are not salvation passages. You're using Jesus' kingdom‑ethic teaching to redefine Paul's gospel.

Jesus was made under the law, to redeem them that were under the laws. (Gal 4:4)

He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt 15:24).

He was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. (Rom 15:8)

He preached the gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23).

Your presentation mixes law with the Gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24) the message the risen Christ gave to Paul by direct revelation (Gal 1:12).

But even Jesus Himself separates entering life (by faith) from building wisely (by obedience)

The house in Matt 7 collapses because it had no foundation (Matt 7:24–27). The foundation is Christ (1 Cor 3:11), not obedience.

You say Faith alone is not biblical. I disagree, Paul says: to the one who does not work but believes (Rom 4:5), NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2:9), NOT BY WORKS of righteousness (Titus 3:5), we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works (Rom 3:28). If faith = obedience, Paul's entire argument collapses.

James 2 does not contradict Paul; it addresses dead faith, not justification. Paul addresses how we are saved. James addresses what genuine faith produces. Faith is the source - Obedience is the result.

Grace saves, grace keeps, grace finishes. Obedience belongs to sanctification, not justification. When you mix the 2, you turn the fruit into the root & end up with a salvation that depends on human performance instead of Christ's finished work
 
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I would be happy to go by verse by verse on the Scriptures the apostles spoke of the first day. Most were historical passages relating to Jesus resting on the Sabbath day in His tomb and rising back to work on the first day. The first thing we see after the death of Christ is His faithful followers who followed Him everywhere keeping the Sabbath according to the commandment Luke23:56. This was the first person Jesus saw- if there was a change why did He not correct them? Because He already promised the Sabbath would not end at the Cross Mat24:20 or ever Isa66:22-23
The change didn't happen while Jesus was still here.
The first Christians (Jewish Christians) were still attending the synogague but were eventually prohibited from attending the service.
It certainly did not happen overnight.
But the NT does speak about breaking bread on the first day...
collecting money on the first day.
Will not look up the scriptures because I don't think this derailing should be happening.

There is a one time meeting late what we call Saturday night, what the Bible considers the first day. They came together to have a meal, which they did daily, because Paul was leaving on a long mission trip the next morning - he would be gone for years. It says nothing about worshipping together because of the resurrection.
I agree that it is not very clear.
Could be that Paul was just going to leave on a Monday.

This was a one time meeting 30+ years after the death of Christ and the apostles were all proclaimed servants of God Rom1:1 not His corrector and a servant serves the way the master asks Isa56:6 because the servant is not greater than their master. John13:16 because than they wouldn't really be a servant.
Can we be sure?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The second time day 1 is mentioned is about a 1 time collection at home for the needy. Nothing about changing one of God's commandments.
Right. This is what I was referring to above.

Our church has meetings on all kinds of days, it doesn't mean it starts changing God's commandments because they belong to God Exo20:6 and no man is greater.
Correct.

Paul as his custom followed Jesus

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures

Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. (Isaiah)

The Sabbath is the only day God named and He called it the Sabbath of the LORD thy God Exo20:10 the holy day of the LORD Isa58:13 I do not change Mal 3:6 meaning there is no other just a counterfeit Dan7:25
Since we're discussing it...would you care to comment on:


Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
 
The Bible is not divided up the way people claim where only approx. 20% "applies" to us and the rest we can toss. I have heard this argument before and its dangerous.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This idea that what Jesus taught is for other people is a very sad deception. Jesus is God and we are to live by His every Word Mat4:4. We are told the saints keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus Rev14:12 not just "in" which is how Jesus lived and what He taught that was His faith and why He is our example.
This is what God says:

-"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, TILL the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
Galatians 3:19 NKJV

-"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
Galatians 3:24-25 NKJV

-"having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
Colossians 2:14 NKJV

-"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
Galatians 2:16 NKJV
 
This is what God says:

-"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, TILL the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
Galatians 3:19 NKJV

-"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
Galatians 3:24-25 NKJV

-"having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
Colossians 2:14 NKJV

-"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
Galatians 2:16 NKJV
Yes, there are two different laws being spoken of not one.

Which is obvious from the very first verse you quoted - there is a law that defines what sin is, the law of God 1John3:4 James2:10-12 Mat5:19-30 Rom7:7 and another law that was added because of sin so can't be the same laws- why Paul quoted from the law he meant, found in verse 10 of Gal what was written in the book, which contained "the handwritten ordinances" written by Moses 2Chron33:8 that was beside the ark of the covenant written in a book as a witness against thee holding all the blessings and curses for breaking the Ten Commandment Deut 31:24-26 The Ten Commandments shows us how to love God with all our heart, mind and soul Exo20:6 Deut6:5 and love our neighbor Rom13:9 that Jesus said there is no greater commandments than these. Paul would never countermand Christ.

Paul can be tricky because he never tells us the law he is quoting from, the context tells us why we have to very carefully and prayerfully study the Scriptures because we are warned many would misinterpret Paul that can lead us down the wrong path 2Peter3:16.

Paul taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1Cor7:19NKJV just as Christ taught John14:15 Exo20:6 so he is not contradicting himself or more importantly God.

I don't know about you but I want to retain what I learned in school so that's always a weird passage to try to forget the law of God, when we are told by God to remember and keep it. Psa78:7 Exo32:16 Exo20:6 Rev14:12 etc etc
 
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Sin has dominion over a person until faith & the indwelling Holy Spirit sanctifying work, not until obedience.

Acts 11:18 says God GRANTED the Gentiles repentance unto life, the Holy Spirit is the GRANT, the GIFT, not a human achievement & 1 Jn 1:8 makes it clear that anyone who thinks they can conquer their sin nature by obedience is deceiving themselves. Obedience doesn't break sin’s power, the Holy Spirit does. Faith doesn't flow from obedience, obedience flows from faith. Until God GRANTS repentance & indwells a person with His Spirit, sin reigns. After He GRANTS repentance & indwells them, sin's dominion is broken & not because they obeyed their way out of bondage, but because God GRANTED them freedom. Any system that makes obedience the key to conquering sin or keeping salvation is simply replacing grace with law & divine GIFT with human effort.

Your reading of Paul collapses at the Greek level. If Paul meant ""obedience is faith,"" he wouldn't use 2 different nouns in a genitive construction - ὑπακοή (obedience) & πίστις (faith). The grammar itself requires a source‑result relationship, making ""obedience that comes from faith"" the only reading that doesn't force Paul to contradict his own gospel

The NIV translators make it clear: ""the obedience that comes from faith."" If obedience comes from faith, then obedience is not faith. Paul keeps the categories distinct. Faith is the source & obedience is the result. Your interpretation requires them to be identical, but Paul & the major translations do not support that.

Faith is the root - Obedience is the fruit. Faith is the cause - Obedience is the effect. Faith is the source - Obedience is the result.
Asked and answered - or stated and countered.

At minimum, since God commands initial and ongoing belief in His Son and Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to believe, there's not much sense in following your root-fruit line of reasoning. Is quite obvious that God knows His command can be obeyed / His news can be believed.

You're trying to convince someone the NIV is the one who got it right after I provided you with the translators' notes about the well known and long-discussed and written about understandings of the issue of ambiguity in the translation? Why do you present yourself as having the ability to make the determination - I know you've ignored my asking you about your training in the language before. So, please explain and I won't ask again.

Re: your comment re: the major translations:
most of them leave the ambiguous "of" or take it as objective "to the". The epexegetical or appositional sense that I agree with is discussed among the scholars as I showed you in the NET Bible Notes that you rejected. What I like about the NET version is that they chose the ambiguous "of" but provided notes to make readers aware of the published discussions about it. Their note can be a good resource.

Now, if you were being thorough or open about, it would be nice if you would provide the detail from the NIV:

This is in the 2011 version of the NIV:

NIV Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from1 faith for his name's sake.
  • Do you see that "1" that I bolded after the word "from"?
    • This is a translators' note like the more extensive one I provided from the NET Bible.
    • It's noting the phrase "comes from" that you're relying on
    • Here's the translator's note:
      • NIV Notes (Rom 1:5)
        Notes:
        1 Or that is

      • So, they actually provided a note that says another potential translation is the one I (and others) agree with - "...the obedience that is faith..."
Odd how the Faith-Alone advocates miss such things.
 
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The change didn't happen while Jesus was still here.
The first Christians (Jewish Christians) were still attending the synogague but were eventually prohibited from attending the service.
It certainly did not happen overnight.
But the NT does speak about breaking bread on the first day...
collecting money on the first day.
Will not look up the scriptures because I don't think this derailing should be happening.


I agree that it is not very clear.
Could be that Paul was just going to leave on a Monday.


Can we be sure?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Right. This is what I was referring to above.


Correct.


Since we're discussing it...would you care to comment on:
The apostles broke bread every day Acts 2:46 it doesn't start deleting the commandments. You have provided no evidence of a change from Scripture of the commandments of God.
Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul starts this off that everything has to be according to Christ Col2:8 so everything must be in light of this. Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath day made for mankind, so hard to make this argument when how many thus saith the LORDS did God repeat for us to keep the Sabbath in His Word? over and over again. Lets not put Paul in the place of God when he said he is not and everything has to be according to Christ.

But lets look carefully at this context because the word sabbath has more than one meaning and I believe Paul was very careful with the context that sadly most people do not look at because they have things they want to do on God's Sabbath that are more important than spending holy time with the LORD.

There are several different Sabbaths in the Bible that uses the same word, but has very different meanings.

There is the seventh day Sabbath- instituted at Creation Exo20:11 Gen2:1-3, came before sin, reaffirmed in the Ten Commandments Exo20:8-11, written by God personally Exo31:18, placed inside God’s ark Exo40:20 God called it “the holy day of the Lord” Isa58:13

There are the annual sabbath(s) feast days that are always tied to animal sacrifices, they don’t always fall on the seventh day can be on any day and came after the fall and were handwritten by Moses, placed besides the ark of God’s covenant came after sin.

  • 1st day of Unleavened Bread
  • 7th day of Unleavened Bread
  • Pentecost
  • Trumpets
  • Day of Atonement
  • 1st day of Tabernacles
  • 8th day of Tabernacles
We see these in Leviticus 23 and these are additional feasts besides the Sabbath of the Lord- the seventh day Sabbath Lev 23:37-38


So I think we are being quick to assume by seeing the word Sabbath that has different meanings and assuming it means the Holy Day of the Lord that comes with God's blessing and sanctification , without looking at the context that Paul carefully gave and we should let the Bible interpret itself.

Col 2:14 KJV Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.

Col 2:14 NASB having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Greek word for handwriting: χειρόγραφον (cheirographon)
Literally: “something written by hand

Ordinances
τοῖς δόγμασιν (tois dogmasin)
Meaning: “decrees,” “regulations,” “legal demands”

It is a legal document that condemns sinners why Paul used the word “against us” and “contrary to us”. The law does not condemn the righteous, it condemns the sinners.

Just from this context that Paul gave we can eliminate the Ten Commandments, but lets let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Who wrote the handwritten ordinances?

2 Chron 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

What law is the law that was contrary and against?

Deut 31:24-26 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;


It appears from the text that this is not referring to the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments that was written by God Himself by His finger Exo31:18 placed inside the ark of the covenant, not besides like the annual sabbath(s) connected to animal sacrifices.


This is the law that was taken away at the Cross.

Col 2:16 let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This is the exact language referring to the annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses, placed besides the ark that refer to annual feasts days, sacrifices and offerings that some were also called sabbath(s)

Eze 45:17 and it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.


What did Jesus say He would come to put an end to? (compared to magnifying another law- by placing it in our hearts Isa42:21 Heb8:10)


Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.


Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ

What are the shadows laws? Lets let the Scriptures define what they are

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once []purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore
, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, []O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been []sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

This fits the context of this passage perfectly and makes the Bible harmonize because we see Sabbath-keeping (every Sabbath) 30+ years after the Cross just as Jesus Himself indicated Isa 56:6-7 Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 and up to His Second Coming Mat24:20-30 and forever Isa66:22-23
 
ACTING on the words of Jesus IS the foundation.
And then Paul comes along and says Jesus = Christ is the only foundation that he as a master-builder placed and that can be built upon (1Cor3:10-11)

Seems like we can easily put those 2 together:
  • Jesus is the Christ [the one who has all authority in Heaven and upon earth and to whom all knees bow]
  • ACT on His Words (do what He says - obey Him/believe Him)
Seems pretty simple.