Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

Great points!

Just to tag along these lines....

God gave His people manna from heaven but they complained and rejected it


Nub 11:1 Now when the people complained, it displeased the LORD; for the LORD heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. 2 Then the people cried out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to the LORD, the fire was quenched. 3 So he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of the LORD had burned among them.
4 Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: “Who will give us meat to eat? 5 We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; 6 but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!”
7 Now the manna was like coriander seed, and its color like the color of bdellium. 8 The people went about and gathered it, ground it on millstones or beat it in the mortar, cooked it in pans, and made cakes of it; and its taste was like the taste of pastry prepared with oil. 9 And when the dew fell on the camp in the night, the manna fell on it.
10 Then Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, everyone at the door of his tent; and the anger of the LORD was greatly aroused; Moses also was displeased. 11 So Moses said to the LORD, “Why have You afflicted Your servant? And why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all these people on me? 12 Did I conceive all these people? Did I beget them, that You should say to me, ‘Carry them in your bosom, as a guardian carries a nursing child,’ to the land which You swore to their fathers? 13 Where am I to get meat to give to all these people? For they weep all over me, saying, ‘Give us meat, that we may eat.’ 14 I am not able to bear all these people alone, because the burden is too heavy for me. 15 If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now—if I have found favor in Your sight—and do not let me see my wretchedness!”

So God gave them what they wanted

31 Now a wind went out from the LORD, and it brought quail from the sea and left them fluttering near the camp, about a day’s journey on this side and about a day’s journey on the other side, all around the camp, and about two cubits above the surface of the ground. 32 And the people stayed up all that day, all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers); and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. 33 But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague.

2 Thess 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is why I believe the 4th commandment, greatest abomination and the 4th plague at the end of time are all related, but that's me. I could be wrong.

We'll know who's right or wrong when the time comes.
I believe God will be merciful with those that loved Him and did their best to please Him.

It's nice to have good conversation....
you brought up a good point and it's nice to go over scripture with the intention of maybe seeing something
new and learning something new!

 

[kinda]

Wake up Kinda!!
I'm worn out too...
but it's worth it.

HOW is one chosen?

 

[Toknow]

A new perspective - Loss of Salvation Thread

I'm no loner going to argue Greek words or respond to 50‑verse carpet bombings just to be personally attacked.

Here is a Scripture‑based answer to the OP. Anyone interested in civil debate based on the English translations. I'm willing to engage.

Jesus calls the Father God (Jn 20:17, Matt 27:46 & Jn 17:3), the Father calls the Son God (Heb 1:8-9) & Paul calls the Son God (Rom 9:5) & Peter calls Holy Spirit God (Acts 5:3–4).

The Human Condition & God's Rescue

All have sinned (Rom 3:23) - sins wage is death (Rom 6:23) - The only rescue if grace of God found in His Son Jesus

Jesus draws all (Jn 12:32), but not all will accept Him

Repentance TOWARD God = change your mind from unbelief to belief) & faith TOWARD the Lord Jesus Christ = trusting His sin‑atoning death & resurrection (Acts 20:21).

When a person understands they have sinned against a sovereign God & that Jesus died, was buried & rose again (1 Cor 15:1-4) for their justification (Rom 4:25) & they call on Him for forgiveness, Jesus who knows every heart (Rev 2:23; Jn 2:24–25), baptizes them with His forever‑indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16). This is an eternal‑life sealing (Eph 1:13–14; Eph 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5; 2 Tim 1:14).

The New Covenant Salvation Pattern

Rom 10:17, believe/call on the Lord (Acts 2:21 & Rom 10:13) & receive the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11 & Lk 11:13), all the woman at the well, living in sin had to do was acknowledge Jesus as Messiah & ask. Only Jesus can baptizes with the Holy Spirit & no deceivers will become receivers (Job 5:12-13)

Gentile Inclusion & the One New Man

Acts 10 is the 1st Gentile inclusion into the Holy Spirit indwelt New Covenant - the inauguration of the Body of Christ, where He makes Jew & Gentile one new man (Eph 2:15).

Acts 10:2 Cornelius didn't have to repent from unbelief he already believe in God. But he had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. Vs.39 Jesus died. Vs.40 Jesus rose on the 3rd day. Vs.43 that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Cornelius & all the gentiles with him Heard the gosplel of Jesus Christ. He died for your sins was buried & rose on the 3rd day & Jesus knowing their hearts baptized them with His eternal life sealing Holy Spirit. These gentiles didn't get circumsised, confess every sin, obey the OC 613 commandments, get water baptized to receive GODS OWNERSHIP SECURITY SEAL yet All thier sins were forgiven Past-Present-Future Christ/God now living inside them FOREVER & EVER! Amen

45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles
(NOTE: Peter the leader of the Jewish Holy Spirit outpouring at Pentecost & the believing Jews with him were ASTONISHED that God had SAVED these gentiles thru FAITH ALONE. Also see Eph 2:8)

Scripture Confirmation

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(NOTE: They heard > believed > received the Holy Spirit)

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(NOTE: For by ONE Holy Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body > whether Jew or Gentile)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision "made without hands", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: OC circumcision initiation was PHYSICIAL. The NT circumcision of Christ, "made without hands." is the inward, SPIRITUAL work of the Holy Spirit)

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(NOTE: A circumcision of the heart, in the spirit & NOT of the LAW)

Toknow, here's an answer to your ""what's a seal"" question:

σφραγίζω = “to seal”
This is the standard NT verb translated “seal” in passages like:
• Ephesians 1:13 — “you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”
• Ephesians 4:30 — “you were sealed for the day of redemption”
• 2 Corinthians 1:22 — “God… sealed us and gave the Spirit in our hearts”
In every one of those verses, the Greek verb is σφραγίζω.

BDAG explicitly defines σφραγίζω as marking ownership, certifying security, and guaranteeing what is sealed. A seal that can be broken is not a seal. Paul’s Greek does not support a salvation that can be undone.

HELPS Word-studies 4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
[Sealing was sometimes done in antiquity by the use of religious tattoos – again signifying "belonging to."]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words - "to seal" [ B-1,Verb,G4972, sphragizo ]
(d) ownership and security, together with destination, Revelation 7:3-Revelation 7:5 (as with the noun in Revelation 7:2; See A); the same three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13, in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," not as AV, "after that ye believed;" the aorist participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (See also Ephesians 1:14); so Ephesians 4:30, "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;" so in 2 Corinthians 1:22, where the Middle Voice intimates the special interest of the Sealer in His act;
(e) authentication by the believer (by receiving the witness of the Son) of the fact that "God is true," John 3:33; authentication by God in sealing the Son as the Giver of eternal life

In short ""to seal"" marking ownership, certifying security & guarantee given by the God's FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit SEAL.

Looks like carpet bombing to me...the likes of which I've never seen.

Also a really large playing field.
Doubt you'll have takers unless a favorite topic is picked.

Regarding SEAL...
yes, correct, when we are sealed we are marked as belonging to God,,,,it is ownership.

BUT
HOW are we sealed?

The early church taught that we are sealed at baptism.
Baptism is the seal.

Some will be baptized and then fall away.
If there was no danger of falling away,,,Paul would not have cautioned against it.

Baptism does not force us to remain with God.

And a Spirit sealed believer cannot return to unbelief, because God Himself keeps, indwells & guarantees the final redemption of those He saves (Eph 1:13–14, 4:30, John 6:39, 10:28–29, 1 Pet 1:5).

If Jesus accepts the sinner, the Father seals the sinner & the Spirit indwells the sinner, the only way that sinner could be lost is if God the Father-Son-Holy Spirit fail & they never fail.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit never fail.
It is always man that fails THEM.
Man does not lose free will when he accepts God's conditions of salvation.
Your belief does not allow for man to have free will after salvation.

God will remain faithful to Himself...to His promises...1 Timothy 4:13
BUT
IF we deny Jesus, He will also deny us.....1 Tim 4:12
and this can happen at any time that a person decides that the cost is too high....
or that he decides that disobedience can be pushed to the proverbial line of demarcation.

Luke 14:28-29
28Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? 29Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man could not finish what he started to build.’

And notice here...
Jesus is repeating the story of the Rich Young Man....
He's saying we must give up everything to follow Him....

And yet some on here are having a problem with the idea of just obeying God !


33In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple.


Something is wrong.

 

[Toknow]

View attachment 287244

Shoot.
You look worse than me!!

So I'll answer:

Q: HOW IS ONE CHOSEN?
A: THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED.

THE WHOSOEVERS of the WORLD.

OK.
You could go back and rest now.

 

[TruthDefender]

Love for God and man is in both covenants Exo20:6 Deut4:13 Heb8:10 John14:15-18

The law of God was given directly by God written by God Exo31:18 Exo20:1-17 Exo20:6

Jesus said there are no greater commandments than these. Mark12:30-31

Love to God never goes out of style- we can depend on our own feelings on how we are to love God or we can do what God says is loving Him. The difference between our will and God's Psa40:8

I never mentioned that the “love for God” was an issue. (?) What does this have anything to do with what I said?

 

[JayWalker]

I believe you're conflating a noun with a verb.

Well you believe wrong.

Faith is ACTION and those walking in Bible faith are living (action) in agreement with the Lord and are not living after the flesh.

WALKING IN FAITH is a good work/deed.

Yes, I have been saying that all along.

But I say we cannot work for our salvation because this implies that ONLY work will get us saved...

Good works do not save us that is true.

But walking after bad works - living after the flesh - certainly causes one to be unsaved.

Those claiming this is not true are advocating for one to live in sinful behavior and still be saved which is false doctrine.

The Gospel comes down to the simple concept that those who are saved will live in agreement with the Lord (walking after the Spirit) instead of living in agreement with the devil (walking after the flesh)

If you know your bible to know that God warns that those living after the flesh are NOT in right standing with Him because they are rejecting Him in favor of living for the devil.

You won't get any argument from me!
But this happens after justification/after salvation.

And those not walking in the instructions these passages from the Lord has given us will not be in attendance at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

You aren't claiming one can live in sin and still be saved are ya?

Kinda sounds like you are and you're trying to ride the fence at the same time.

Again...you're conflating the noun FAITH
with the verb WALKING IN FAITH, which is a good work/deed.
Please think this over.

And yet is is because man has the ability and responsibility to choose to walk in faith.
Those choosing to not walk in faith are now doing evil works.

Ephesians 2:8 ALL THREE ARE GIFTS: GRACE, FAITH, SALVATION

And those not living in these (ACTION) won't be in attendance at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

You aren't claiming one can live in sin and still be saved are ya?

FAITH IS A GIFT which a person must want and receive.
WALKING IN FAITH is doing good work.

These cannot be separated.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

So if a person receives the gift of faith the result of having received the gift brings forth the fruit of walking after the Spirit.

If a person does not received the gift of faith or is a backslider, then they bring forth the fruit of walking after the flesh and are not saved.

 

[studier]

If Jesus accepts the sinner, the Father seals the sinner & the Spirit indwells the sinner, the only way that sinner could be lost is if God the Father-Son-Holy Spirit fail & they never fail.

Allowing a volitional creature to act is not divine failure — if it were, God would have been failing since the angelic rebellion.

I’ll take your wordy post as a refusal to stay on the narrow battlefield where the words and grammar determine the actual meaning.

What you’ve shifted to is not new. It’s a familiar theological data‑dump, not an engagement with the text. It’s a retreat into a system rather than an answer to the linguistic issue that exposes whether the system fits the Scripture.

It’s also interesting that you say you’ll deal only with English, yet you appeal to BDAG to answer @Toknow, which suggests the parameters you set aren’t the ones you intend to follow.

Given that, it isn’t surprising. The material you were drawing from was never going to support the assertions you were making once the language was examined. It's obvious you do not know what you represent to know.

 

[markss]

Allowing a volitional creature to act is not divine failure — if it were, God would have been failing since the angelic rebellion.

Volitional only as according to your nature.

You cannot choose to fly to the moon, because you are not that kind of a creature.

If any be in Christ, he is as new creation . . . now everything is of God.

Put on the new man, which is created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

As a human, do you suppose you could choose to no longer be a human, born from Adam?

As a new creation, do you suppose you could choose to become the old creation? Can you be unborn from your mother? Can the child of God choose to be unborn from God?

I don't think so.

I think supposing that you have a choice over your very nature, that's putting yourself in the seat of God.

Much love!

 

[studier]

I'm a sister !! (but a brother in Christ)


View attachment 287240

Healthy attitude.

It allows translators to just parse from the Text and not have to cater to everyone's sensitivities, which are never-ending.

 

[studier]

Volitional only as according to your nature.

Standard reformed fare.

Not interested in rehashing it.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I never mentioned that the “love for God” was an issue. (?) What does this have anything to do with what I said?

Every time God tells us how to love Him it's with obedience to His commandments. You can't separate the love of God without obeying His commandments Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3 John15:10 etc. God defined His own commandments He even wrote them out for us. He wrote them on stone for its eternal nature in the Old Covenant Deut4:13 Exo34:28 and He internalizes them in the NC by writing them on the hearts and minds of His New Covenant believer. 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 Not on stony hearts that will not subject themselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8 but hearts made of flesh that love God will all their heart soul and mind. Jesus quoted the Greatest Commandments from the OT, Lev19:8 Deut6:5 and they always included God commandments the first 4 God tells us how to love Him Exo20:1-11 the last 6 Exo 20:12-17 how we love our neighbor Rom13:9 and no greater commandments than these why they are in both covenants, not a jot or tittle can be edited because it was written by the Holy Spirit of Truth Exo31:18 they are perfect converting the soul Psa19:7 holy, just and good Rom7:12

 

[markss]

Standard reformed fare.

Not interested in rehashing it.

Labeling me (incorrectly, I might add) serves you, giving you an excuse to dismiss my words, and no other purpose. I see you do the same with others as well, which communicates volumes.

I have no concern whether you reply or not. But interesting that this is what you do.

So then the takeaway is you think you change your nature? You can choose to become a fish? Of course not. The born to become unborn? Of course not.

As I said . . . that is God's place, not man's.

 

[JayWalker]

Standard reformed fare.

That's too bad...

 

[studier]

Labeling me (incorrectly, I might add) serves you, giving you an excuse to dismiss my words, and no other purpose. I see you do the same with others as well, which communicates volumes.

I have no concern whether you reply or not. But interesting that this is what you do.

So then the takeaway is you think you change your nature? You can choose to become a fish? Of course not. The born to become unborn? Of course not.

As I said . . . that is God's place, not man's.

The language is standard reformed fare. My response described the content.

Since you take this into absurdity, what's the discussion to be had with reasoning that compares a volitional man created in God's likeness to a fish? I hope you don't think I've not seen these arguments before and that what you just said is a surprise?

I simply don’t rest in all these natural analogies others find meaningful. Jesus had to move Nicodemus past the same kinds of illustrations because the issue wasn’t biology but spiritual relationship and what we are and have in Christ as long as we remain in Him in Spirit.

 

[markss]

Since you take this into absurdity, what's the discussion to be had with reasoning that compares a volitional man created in God's likeness to a fish?

This is not what I wrote, did you actually read my post? Or just skim it and reply with whatever came to mind?

You've asserted that God allows man the volition that carries into the power to become unsaved, is that not what you are asserting? Let me know if I've misunderstood you.

I'm replying that man, while having the power to make choices, lacks the power to choose to change their nature. You cannot choose to become a fish. I'm not comparing you to a fish. I'm saying your volitional capabilities do not allow you to choose to become a fish. Nor can you choose to become unborn from your mother. You cannot choose to become non-human. Neither can you choose to become unborn from God, nor chose to become unregenerate.

The issue I'm raising is nature, not biology. Nicodemas apparently already understood that he could not change his own nature, or arrange for that to happen. That puts him way ahead in this discussion, in my opinion.

Much love!

 

[legion]

That's all rationalizations and misrepresentations rather than scripture itself, AND within context. To claim scripture doesn't answer the question for an alleged loss or tossing aside of salvation, that's more a claim for not knowing the scriptures rather than answering the question FROM scripture.

Who have you ever known that tossed it aside? All the hypotheticals I've seen people try to use as proof for their beliefs, it's all nonsense.

MM

The problem with coding scripture is that where the problem starts I post a scripture with my view or understanding and then you post your view with your understanding and it never goes anywhere if you had spent enough time debating anything seriously you would understand this truth.

Moreover if you understood church history and theology you would know that this question has never been 100% answered. And I will concerd that the scripture probably does have the answer, but we as a human race have yet to discover it or the question would have been laid to rest centuries if not Millennia ago. It is a matter of faith.

It is intellectually dishonest to make a claim that has an equally dependable opposite claim and state that yours is correct. Your posturing is closed minded.

Notwithstanding you're attempt at provoking me which I find childish in this discussion I simply stated what we all know to be a fact there is no 100% empirical evidence one way or the other in the Bible about this subject.

I'm not going to thrash you with scripture because it is pointless and has been done since the Inception of the Bible if you simply study it on your own you will see exactly what I'm talking about.

This is no different than the concept of a Rapture it also is not 100% provable either however most people even including me believe that there is one.

 

[Musicmaster]

Well you believe wrong.

Faith is ACTION and those walking in Bible faith are living (action) in agreement with the Lord and are not living after the flesh.

True faith does indeed encourage and build good works, but the works are not the basis of our salvation. THAT is where so many get it wrong.

Good works do not save us that is true.

Agreed, but for some people who have given themselves over to legalism, works become the source for boasting.

But walking after bad works - living after the flesh - certainly causes one to be unsaved.

How? Where does it say that...without injecting salvation into those passages and contexts that speak on sin and backsliding that many point at as their illegitimate support for the alleged loss of salvation?

Those claiming this is not true are advocating for one to live in sinful behavior and still be saved which is false doctrine.

Wrong. Believing works are not the basis of our salvation is not a matter of teaching anyone any aspect of loose living in any ol' way one chooses...contrary to the legalistic chumps who say otherwise.

The Gospel comes down to the simple concept that those who are saved will live in agreement with the Lord (walking after the Spirit) instead of living in agreement with the devil (walking after the flesh)

If you know your bible to know that God warns that those living after the flesh are NOT in right standing with Him because they are rejecting Him in favor of living for the devil.

So, if your positing an idea for loss of salvation, please define for everyone where that line rests over which one allegedly looses his salvation dare he step over it. what sins are the one side and which are on the other side, and where does scripture state such? You too are sinning on a daily basis, as are we all. How can anyone know if they are saved without defining that line?

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

That does indeed describe the lost. Nothing in that context points out a loss of salvation regardless of all the false teaching pastors out there who teach otherwise.

So if a person receives the gift of faith the result of having received the gift brings forth the fruit of walking after the Spirit.

If a person does not received the gift of faith or is a backslider, then they bring forth the fruit of walking after the flesh and are not saved.

Really? Paul disagrees:

Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is so overlooked by the purely religious out there who are works-based salvationists.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The problem with coding scripture is that where the problem starts I post a scripture with my view or understanding and then you post your view with your understanding and it never goes anywhere if you had spent enough time debating anything seriously you would understand this truth.

Moreover if you understood church history and theology you would know that this question has never been 100% answered. And I will concerd that the scripture probably does have the answer, but we as a human race have yet to discover it or the question would have been laid to rest centuries if not Millennia ago. It is a matter of faith.

Mankind's propensity toward believing on the basis of wishful thinking versus upholding ONLY what scripture actually says, yes. You're right. That will never see the light of day for a conclusion that satisfies all parties. That isn't saying much of anything at all but rather a recognition of hos things are for those who fail to read scripture for what it says and do not conform themselves to Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).

It is intellectually dishonest to make a claim that has an equally dependable opposite claim and state that yours is correct. Your posturing is closed minded.

Claims in and of themselves are meaningless. What some claim on the basis of the clear language of scripture, in context and on the basis of systematic oversight, as a counter to what others claims...so what? What's of value is to discuss what's actually stated, in context and by way of systematic study, all stacked up against wishful thinking and eisegesis so common among so many professing believers. Many have said in these forums, "Oh, I had not noticed that before...thanks for the insight." There's value in discussion over scripture and its clarity of language and in-depth study, coupled with prayer and receptiveness of Holy Spirit.

Notwithstanding you're attempt at provoking me which I find childish in this discussion I simply stated what we all know to be a fact there is no 100% empirical evidence one way or the other in the Bible about this subject.

Sidestepping the worthless ad hominem, what exactly are you addressing as the point everyone agrees? Please clarify.

I'm not going to thrash you with scripture because it is pointless and has been done since the Inception of the Bible if you simply study it on your own you will see exactly what I'm talking about.

This is no different than the concept of a Rapture it also is not 100% provable either however most people even including me believe that there is one.

Please spare us the attempt at a tongue lashing. There are many meaningful and insightful discussions in here, and your seeming lack of recognizing that is your own problem, not a problem lying at the doorstep of others.

MM

 

[legion]

Mankind's propensity toward believing on the basis of wishful thinking versus upholding ONLY what scripture actually says, yes. You're right. That will never see the light of day for a conclusion that satisfies all parties. That isn't saying much of anything at all but rather a recognition of hos things are for those who fail to read scripture for what it says and do not conform themselves to Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).



Claims in and of themselves are meaningless. What some claim on the basis of the clear language of scripture, in context and on the basis of systematic oversight, as a counter to what others claims...so what? What's of value is to discuss what's actually stated, in context and by way of systematic study, all stacked up against wishful thinking and eisegesis so common among so many professing believers. Many have said in these forums, "Oh, I had not noticed that before...thanks for the insight." There's value in discussion over scripture and its clarity of language and in-depth study, coupled with prayer and receptiveness of Holy Spirit.



Sidestepping the worthless ad hominem, what exactly are you addressing as the point everyone agrees? Please clarify.



Please spare us the attempt at a tongue lashing. There are many meaningful and insightful discussions in here, and your seeming lack of recognizing that is your own problem, not a problem lying at the doorstep of others.

MM

So let me get the straight all you are trying to do is provoke me so that you have this glorious view that everybody else should believe in that has no 100% proof and that I speak a different View which I will agree it has no 100% proof

Tell me who is being more honest you who is decided one way because of your viewpoints and me who has said there are two ways to view this subject and neither of them are 100% provable in addition this is a matter of faith which is what Christianity is all about.

So tell me oh great psychologist would you like to continue arguing to make yourself look better or would you like to help those who might be seeking an answer by explaining both sides of the coin

 

[TruthDefender]

Every time God tells us how to love Him it's with obedience to His commandments. You can't separate the love of God without obeying His commandments Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3 John15:10 etc. God defined His own commandments He even wrote them out for us. He wrote them on stone for its eternal nature in the Old Covenant Deut4:13 Exo34:28 and He internalizes them in the NC by writing them on the hearts and minds of His New Covenant believer. 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 Not on stony hearts that will not subject themselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8 but hearts made of flesh that love God will all their heart soul and mind. Jesus quoted the Greatest Commandments from the OT, Lev19:8 Deut6:5 and they always included God commandments the first 4 God tells us how to love Him Exo20:1-11 the last 6 Exo 20:12-17 how we love our neighbor Rom13:9 and no greater commandments than these why they are in both covenants, not a jot or tittle can be edited because it was written by the Holy Spirit of Truth Exo31:18 they are perfect converting the soul Psa19:7 holy, just and good Rom7:12

So you aren’t familiar with the Law of Christ in the NT; the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is what we are called to follow.