The book of Job

[christophernyc]

Actually he did because walking in fear is a sin. See Revelation 21:8, and also notice how many times in scripture the Lord commands His people to FEAR NOT! That's not a suggestion, it's a command.

The hedge of protection God had put around Job came down because he started walking in fear concerning his children being scared that his children were going to curse God and die which is exactly what happened to them

Job tells us what he feared came upon him, so he admits that he started living in fear.

However Job was heart right before the Lord and I don't think he got in to fear maliciously or knowingly being fearful so because of this the Lord considered him to be upright.

They does not mean though that Job is not going to reap corruption for getting in to fear. Now days we have the whole counsel of God in printed form (the Bible) which Job did not have at that time so where there is no law, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15)

Seems like you might be trying to have it both ways here. You assert Job is "living in sin" and yet simultaneously "upright" still. So by your metric, it appears God us punishing Job with the suffering to punish and correct his fearful state of being?

I see your point about how Job says what he fears has come upon him (Job 3:25) -- however, I don't think it's the same kind of fear you are thinking of as in Rev 21:8. The words in Job 3:25 are the Hebrew words Strong's #6342. pachad and Strong's #3025. yagor which have more to do with an expression of "dread". For example, Bob woke up Monday morning dreading to go to work. It's more of an expression of saying that you would hate if such-and-such were to happen to you.

Now compare that with Strong's 3373. yare. This is the word used when it says Job "fears" God and shuns evil. Job has his fear properly aligned with the Almighty. Contrast this with Jacob, for example, who had done his brother Esau wrong. When Jacob knew Esau was on his way, he "feared" (yare) Esau. You might say in this moment that Jacob "feared" Esau more than God, unlike Job who feared God and shunned evil.

Furthermore, God clearly states in Job 2:3 that Job's suffering is "without cause". So if you believe Job is suffering because of his supposed "living in fear" that would contradict God's assessment of Job and his right standing before God.

 

[christophernyc]

If Job did not cause God's hedge of protection to be removed opening the door for satan to come in and attack him, then that is claiming the Lord decided He wanted Job to suffer which is the claim the God is evil further claiming that the Lord lied in John 10:10 and in James 1:13

Trying to follow your line of thinking here... How did you conclude Job was the one who caused God's hedge of protection to be removed? Is this the living in fear theory again? If so, where does it say that in the text? Or is there another reason you are saying Job caused God to remove the hedge of protection? I don't find anything in the text to indicate this idea.

Job 1:9-12
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

That is how the hedge was removed from around Job.

Also, I don't believe I have found an opinion that differs from yours which also asserts that God is evil. God allowing these evils to befall Job does not thereby infer God is evil. Not at all. Regarding that point, let's review two verses from this story:

Job 2:9-10
9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. 10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

Job 42:11
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:

 

[tttallison]

We can move on to your other points, gladly. It must be pointed out that it did not seem to me there was an adequate explanation from you regarding Job 33:23-28, only assertions.

Anyway, regarding your God giving 6 chapters to Elihu point. This has been addressed by me (for you specifically) in other threads, but here it is again since I know this is one of your talking points.

First of all, you do not believe this logic. How do I know? Because you have consistently condemned Job for his words. Yes, Elihu speaks for 6 chapters, but guess what? Job speaks for 20 chapters. So by your own reasoning, you do not believe this position.

At any rate, what I have explained (specifically to you) before is that the amount of words is not the issue --- it's the substance and the context of those words that matter.

Additionally, this book is written quite differently than most other books of the Bible. The overwhelming majority of the text is dialogue --- entities speaking to each other --- for most of the 42 chapters. So the amount of speeches for everyone is measurably higher than other books of the Bible.

Have you ever heard this saying? It's easier to deceive someone than it is to convince someone they've been deceived?

Do you remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness?

Matthew 4:5-7
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Notice anything? The devil is quoting Scripture --- and he's quoting it accurately. By your reasoning then, you might be inclined to say the devil is promoting the Gospel or something. But here is the point: it's not about the words only --- it's about the substance and the context in which the words are said.

Now apply that to Elihu.

This is at least the second or third time I've made this same exact point for you, so if you insist again it's not been addressed, then it comes across as nothing but crazy-making.

Yes Job had 20 chapters, but the scripture tells us Job had no knowledge. Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Job himself tells us that he spoke of things he had no knowledge. Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. We are left with no reason whatsoever to trust the words of Job. It doesn't mean that Job did not say anything true. It just means we have no way of knowing whether they are true or not, without examining those words. In contrast, the scripture gives us no reason not to believe Elihu. God never condemns Elihu, and Job has no response to Elihu.

When Satan quoted scripture from the temple, that scripture was true, even though it was only a half-truth, but then the scripture clarifies that for us. It doesn't leave us hanging as to whether the scripture is true or not. The scripture never leaves us hanging as to whether it is true or not. All scripture is given by inspiration of God.

 

[JayWalker]

You assert Job is "living in sin" and yet simultaneously "upright" still.

He was was in fear and we know that because Job tells us that

But He did not get into walking in fear out of rebellion towards God knowingly do sin so the Lord considered him to be heart right since it was his hearts desire to do right before the Lord.

As mentioned already, if Job was living in modern times and had the whole counsel of God in printed for like we have then he would have never gotten in to fear.

it appears God us punishing Job

God was no punishing Job. Job's friends were telling him that and God showed up and said they were speaking wrongly

Job 38:1-3 (God asks Job who this guy is that doesn’t know what he’s talking about)
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


No, Job caused the hedge of protection God had put up around him to be broken down by getting in to fear.

Job is the reason why satan had an opening to come after him.

God allowing these evils to befall Job does not thereby infer God is evil.

If God allows evil for no reason ,that would make Him a co-conspiritor with satan

No, God allows man to reap what he sows because God built His entire Kingdom on seedtime and harvest

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Job got in to fear and he reaped corruption

 

[christophernyc]

My point has been that your complete defense for stating that Elihu was a liar is based on your mis-interpretation of God's statement that Job was blameless and upright. You did not consider that Job had requested Elihu the mediator twice, and that God answered that request, and that Elihu stated he was the mediator that Job requested, and that he stood in the place of God. Job had stated that God would not be a fair mediator, and that was the reason for Job's request for a man such as Elihu. A man that Job would not be afraid of.

The definition for blameless was that God was not holding Job accountable for the sin he did in ignorance because he was without knowledge. An example would be how the law interprets ignorance. It did not mean that he hadn't done terrible sins.

Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. (Notice that only the sins done in ignorance are atoned for. Also, I recognize that Job was not under Jewish law, for Job was not a Jew.)

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: (Job's former sins were done in ignorance.)

Sins such as Eliphaz presented. Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken. (God did not hold Job accountable for this since it was done in ignorance. This is an example of blameless.

We see in the above verse how upright could be defined. Job had said, Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem. Job had said, he sat chief and dwelt as a king. Job was applying his own justice, his own righteousness. Job had probably judged those widows to not be worthy. But here is the problem, it wasn't God's justice that Job was applying, but rather his own justice. God had said to Job, Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

You are mis-stating what God had said about the three friends. God had never said that the three friends had said anything wrong about Job. God had said, they had not spoken what was right about God. In other words they were to repent and confess their sins. This is what Elihu said when he made the following statement, Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. The answer was that Job had to repent and confess his sins, which is exactly what he did, before God accepted him.

It's unclear to me whether you are not understanding the point or purposefully obfuscating it.

Let me try one last time, okay?

The thrust of the argument of Job's 3 friends is that Job had sinned to incur his suffering. Got it? They believe he must have done something wrong if he is suffering so horrifically. This is the foundation for why they say all of the things they say. That is the assumption on which they build all of their arguments.

However, every reader knows that Job's suffering is not based on any sin he has committed. Do you understand this? I don't see how this is difficult to grasp.

Therefore, because Elihu's accusations which he levels at Job are based on the same reasoning that Job had sinned to incur his suffering, he too is thereby wrong. He's wrong because that is not the story. That is not what is written in the text. That is not why Job is suffering.

I don't know how to simplify this any more for you.

 

[christophernyc]

He was was in fear and we know that because Job tells us that

But He did not get into walking in fear out of rebellion towards God knowingly do sin so the Lord considered him to be heart right since it was his hearts desire to do right before the Lord.

As mentioned already, if Job was living in modern times and had the whole counsel of God in printed for like we have then he would have never gotten in to fear.




God was no punishing Job. Job's friends were telling him that and God showed up and said they were speaking wrongly

Job 38:1-3 (God asks Job who this guy is that doesn’t know what he’s talking about)
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


No, Job caused the hedge of protection God had put up around him to be broken down by getting in to fear.

Job is the reason why satan had an opening to come after him.




If God allows evil for no reason ,that would make Him a co-conspiritor with satan

No, God allows man to reap what he sows because God built His entire Kingdom on seedtime and harvest

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Job got in to fear and he reaped corruption

Job 2:3
3And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God says Job's suffering occurred "without cause". You apparently believe there was a cause. Your view contradicts what is written in Scripture.

Also, you might want to review the Hebrew words again I provided in my last post for you.

 

[tttallison]

It's unclear to me whether you are not understanding the point or purposefully obfuscating it.

Let me try one last time, okay?

The thrust of the argument of Job's 3 friends is that Job had sinned to incur his suffering. Got it? They believe he must have done something wrong if he is suffering so horrifically. This is the foundation for why they say all of the things they say. That is the assumption on which they build all of their arguments.

However, every reader knows that Job's suffering is not based on any sin he has committed. Do you understand this? I don't see how this is difficult to grasp.

Therefore, because Elihu's accusations which he levels at Job are based on the same reasoning that Job had sinned to incur his suffering, he too is thereby wrong. He's wrong because that is not the story. That is not what is written in the text. That is not why Job is suffering.

I don't know how to simplify this any more for you.

Every reader does not know that Job's suffering is not based on any sin he has committed. Job's three friends knew Job's suffering was based on his sins, and who knows you better than your friends.

It should be logical to understand, that if God allowed two tests for Job, and in the first test God declares it to be unjust, but in the second test God does not, then Job did not pass the second test. That is common sense. Perhaps you believe God to be too busy to comment on the second test.

God sent the three friends to be witnesses against Job, at least that is what Job said. Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me. Who knows you better than your closest friends?

Immediately after Job finished cursing his day, and cursing his mother in conception, the spirit speaks through Eliphaz and says---- Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? This occurs immediately after the second test. This is very early in the story, but it is a theme promoted by both Elihu and God.

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God said, Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

There you have it, all three, the spirit, Elihu, and God all saying the same thing. Job was exalting himself above God. Job did that when he said he was righteous but God was not.

Eliphaz said to Job, Job 4:8-9 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. (True statement. You reap what you sow.)

Eliphaz said to Job, Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

Eliphaz said to, Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Then we have Eliphaz commenting on Job’s behavior. Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away kempty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.

Then we have Zophar commenting on Job’s behavior., Job 20:19 Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not;

Remember that these are the friends that sat with him in silence for seven days and seven nights.

 

[Mem]

Every reader does not know that Job's suffering is not based on any sin he has committed. Job's three friends knew Job's suffering was based on his sins, and who knows you better than your friends.

It should be logical to understand, that if God allowed two tests for Job, and in the first test God declares it to be unjust, but in the second test God does not, then Job did not pass the second test. That is common sense. Perhaps you believe God to be too busy to comment on the second test.

God sent the three friends to be witnesses against Job, at least that is what Job said. Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me. Who knows you better than your closest friends?

Immediately after Job finished cursing his day, and cursing his mother in conception, the spirit speaks through Eliphaz and says---- Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? This occurs immediately after the second test. This is very early in the story, but it is a theme promoted by both Elihu and God.

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God said, Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

There you have it, all three, the spirit, Elihu, and God all saying the same thing. Job was exalting himself above God. Job did that when he said he was righteous but God was not.

Eliphaz said to Job, Job 4:8-9 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. (True statement. You reap what you sow.)

Eliphaz said to Job, Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

Eliphaz said to, Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Then we have Eliphaz commenting on Job’s behavior. Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away kempty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.

Then we have Zophar commenting on Job’s behavior., Job 20:19 Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not;

Remember that these are the friends that sat with him in silence for seven days and seven nights.

In summary, what did Job's friends' get wrong that Job got right so that Job had to pray for them. My first thought is Job reaching that point in saying, 'let me put my hand to my mouth,' after having 'wrongly' accused God. And, if given that Job's friend had not been wrongly accusing him, did their transgression have anything to do with saying anything at all, in regard to anyone (else other than God's) righteousness?

 

[tttallison]

In summary, what did Job's friends' get wrong that Job got right so that Job had to pray for them. My first thought is Job reaching that point in saying, 'let me put my hand to my mouth,' after having 'wrongly' accused God. And, if given that Job's friend had not been wrongly accusing him, did their transgression have anything to do with saying anything at all, in regard to anyone (else other than God's) righteousness?

God never stated that the three friends said anything wrong. What God said was that they didn’t say what was right.

The three friends didn’t tell Job that it was necessary to put on God’s righteousness, they said Job needed to be more righteous.

Elihu put it this way, Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. The three friends, like Job, were living in their own righteousness just as Job was doing.

The reason Job was given the opportunity to pray for his three friends was because Job prayed to God that someone would intercede on his behalf. Job 16:21 O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour! (In this we are given a picture of what Jesus does for us all.)

Repentance comes before salvation.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (Job had actually said that God was not good. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. This is why God asked Job if Job was going to condemn God, so that Job might be righteous.)

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (This is why God allowed Job to suffer.)

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (This is why God stated Job was without knowledge.)

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I don’t who you are referring to when you say Job’s friend was wrongly accusing him. The bible doesn’t say the three friends wrongly accused him. It states that they accused him though they had no answer. The three friends were, as one might say, birds of a feather with Job. Elihu was not Job’s friend, rather, he was the mediator that Job had requested.

 

[Mem]

I don’t who you are referring to when you say Job’s friend was wrongly accusing him. The bible doesn’t say the three friends wrongly accused him. It states that they accused him though they had no answer. The three friends were, as one might say, birds of a feather with Job. Elihu was not Job’s friend, rather, he was the mediator that Job had requested.

I was referring to the common teaching that his friend(s) were wrongly accusing him. I can see how each of them could have been placed into Job's position and not have fared as 'well' as Job had.
As we approach the holiday, the account of Jesus crucifixion, death, and resurrection is currently the central message. And hearing this explanation of Elihu, I find it supporting an assertion I'd encountered that Elihu is a young Elijah, and it provides a clearer understanding of those standing there saying, "He is calling Elijah..." when Jesus said, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?"

 

[tttallison]

I was referring to the common teaching that his friend(s) were wrongly accusing him. I can see how each of them could have been placed into Job's position and not have fared as 'well' as Job had.
As we approach the holiday, the account of Jesus crucifixion, death, and resurrection is currently the central message. And hearing this explanation of Elihu, I find it supporting an assertion I'd encountered that Elihu is a young Elijah, and it provides a clearer understanding of those standing there saying, "He is calling Elijah..." when Jesus said, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?"

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is not only the Son, but is also the Father, and the mighty God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job 7:14Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

Job was in a horrible state. He had sores all over his body ... from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. He was feverish and ached throughout his whole body. His sickness, which was brought on by satan, caused his sleep to be disturbed with horrible dreams.

Again, I remind you, Job and his friends had no clue that satan was attacking Job. All of them, Job included, attributed what Job was going through to God. In our day and time, we know it was satan who attacked Job because God tells us in His Word. But at the time, neither Job nor his friends knew it was satan who was to blame for Job's horrible condition.

Job 33:14-16 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

These are the words of Elihu and, yes, we read in Scripture of times when God revealed things to folks through visions.

Gen 46:2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

agree that God revealed to Jacob through "visions of the night".

You believe the nightmares Job spoke of in chapter 7 are the same as what Elihu spoke of in chapter 33.

I believe Job had nightmares brought on by his horrible illness ... or perhaps even satan himself ... I do not believe the dreams and visions Job spoke of in chapter 7 were visions from God.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

My understanding of Job in chapter 41 is That God (First person) is speaking to Job (Second person) about leviathan (Third person) for all 34 verses. Is this your understanding as well?

yes ... and in Job 40, God spoke of behemoth. Beginning in chapter 38, God spoke of His creation. God revealed to Job His infinite and magnanimous greatness and Job understood that he was utterly incapable of understanding all the why's and wherefores known only to God.

After God revealed Himself to Job, Job was able to declare I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee (Job 42:5). That, to me, is an amazing statement and not many folks today can say the same as Job.

Is the serpent in the garden of Eden Satan?

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

In Job 41, I do believe God was alluding to satan. However, did Job or Job's friends know God was speaking of satan? I do not believe so because in Job 42:11, they spoke of "all the evil that the LORD had brought" ...

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.


In our day and time, we know about satan and his minions. This information concerning satan was veiled in the OT. Everything, both good and bad, was attributed to God in OT times.

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed the workings of satan and Paul revealed even more about satan after the giving of the Holy Spirit referred to in Acts 2.

We are afforded more information in our reading of the Book of Job than Job had even though Job was the one who was going through the horrible onslaught from satan.

.

 

[tttallison]

Job was in a horrible state. He had sores all over his body ... from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. He was feverish and ached throughout his whole body. His sickness, which was brought on by satan, caused his sleep to be disturbed with horrible dreams.

Again, I remind you, Job and his friends had no clue that satan was attacking Job. All of them, Job included, attributed what Job was going through to God. In our day and time, we know it was satan who attacked Job because God tells us in His Word. But at the time, neither Job nor his friends knew it was satan who was to blame for Job's horrible condition.





These are the words of Elihu and, yes, we read in Scripture of times when God revealed things to folks through visions.





agree that God revealed to Jacob through "visions of the night".

You believe the nightmares Job spoke of in chapter 7 are the same as what Elihu spoke of in chapter 33.

I believe Job had nightmares brought on by his horrible illness ... or perhaps even satan himself ... I do not believe the dreams and visions Job spoke of in chapter 7 were visions from God.

.

Job was in his sorry state because he exalted himself above God. God spent two chapters explaining to Job that Job wasn't God. (Chapters 38 and 39.)

Do you realize how much of this book you have to alter in order to defend Job. You are saying Job was confused when he said God was inflicting him. This confusion would also include his wife, as well as Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, God, and Satan.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Whose hand was put forth? God said OK.

Do you believe Elihu was standing in for God, or was Elihu lying?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job was in his sorry state because he exalted himself above God.

not according to what is written in Job 2:7:

Job 2:6-7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

satan smote Job ... not God.

God spent two chapters explaining to Job that Job wasn't God. (Chapters 38 and 39.)

Job was fully aware he was not God.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Do you realize how much of this book you have to alter in order to defend Job.

I am reading straight from the text. When we stand before the Father to give an account, He will let us know if we have not rightly divided His Word.

You are saying Job was confused when he said God was inflicting him. This confusion would also include his wife, as well as Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, God, and Satan.

God knew satan was the one afflicting Job ... satan knew what he was doing as well.

I am saying that Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, sisters, and acquaintances ... none of them ... knew it was satan who was attacking Job.

In Job 42, when Job's brothers, sisters, and all of his acquaintances gathered to rejoice in Job's healing, every single one of them comforted Job "over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him".

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

None of them knew it was satan who was attacking Job.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Whose hand was put forth?

read the next verse:

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

it was satan who killed Job's children, his servants, and destroyed his possessions after God placed the restriction on satan that he was not to touch Job.


Job 2:4-7

4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

satan smote Job after God placed the restriction that satan could not kill Job.

God said OK.

this does not change the fact that it was satan who killed Job's children, killed Job's servants, destroyed Job's possessions, and smote Job with boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Do you believe Elihu was standing in for God, or was Elihu lying?

I believe neither of your suggestions.

I believe Job, Elihu, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... all of them ... spoke some truth and some error in their discussions amongst each other.

The premise (that Job had sinned and if Job would repent, God would forgive Job) was faulty from the get go.

Job had not sinned ... satan was just being satan ... God distanced Himself from Job during his affliction ... and God blessed the latter end of Job (Job 42:12) and Job lived another 140 years after the time of satan's onslaught (Job 42:16).

.

 

[tttallison]

not according to what is written in Job 2:7:

Job 2:6-7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

satan smote Job ... not God.





Job was fully aware he was not God.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.





I am reading straight from the text. When we stand before the Father to give an account, He will let us know if we have not rightly divided His Word.





God knew satan was the one afflicting Job ... satan knew what he was doing as well.

I am saying that Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, sisters, and acquaintances ... none of them ... knew it was satan who was attacking Job.

In Job 42, when Job's brothers, sisters, and all of his acquaintances gathered to rejoice in Job's healing, every single one of them comforted Job "over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him".

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

None of them knew it was satan who was attacking Job.





read the next verse:

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

it was satan who killed Job's children, his servants, and destroyed his possessions after God placed the restriction on satan that he was not to touch Job.


Job 2:4-7

4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

satan smote Job after God placed the restriction that satan could not kill Job.





this does not change the fact that it was satan who killed Job's children, killed Job's servants, destroyed Job's possessions, and smote Job with boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.





I believe neither of your suggestions.

I believe Job, Elihu, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... all of them ... spoke some truth and some error in their discussions amongst each other.

The premise (that Job had sinned and if Job would repent, God would forgive Job) was faulty from the get go.

Job had not sinned ... satan was just being satan ... God distanced Himself from Job during his affliction ... and God blessed the latter end of Job (Job 42:12) and Job lived another 140 years after the time of satan's onslaught

.

You are denying the sovereignty and omniscience of God. Satan was the observer. God said to Satan, come here, and take a close look at this fellow. God knew that Satan and Job had something in common. Remember when God asked Job if he was going to make a permanent covenant with Satan, and take him for a servant forever? We know it was Satan because he observes all high things, and is king over all the children of pride. Satan was initially presented as observing the high things of heaven.

Isa 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Job 29:7 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth. When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:

And God said, "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.----- Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?-------Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?----Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.----Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

 

[JayWalker]

Job had not sinned ... satan was just being satan ...

God put a hedge of protection around Job that prevented satan from being able to touch Job.

So obviously something changed causing that hedge of protection to no longer be there

Those listening to the devil claim God decided He'd like some entertainment one day and just willie nillie decided to take the hedge of protection away for not reason other than having some morbid desire to see Job suffer at the hands of satan... they probably think God went to the kitchen and popped some popcorn before the shows started and watched while getting drunk on beer.

No, Job got in to fear and that is why the hedge of protection went away so Job ultimately caused his own problems.

Some reject this so they either claim satan is all powerful and the Lord is powerless to stop him, or that God has some morbid desire to see Job suffer at the hands of satan which they of course is ongoing as they think anytime something bad happens to them or their family it's because it was God's will and it was God that brought the evil upon them.

So satan is using the situation with Job to deceive people today deceiving them in to blaming God rather than recognizing it's the devil that has gotten in to their affairs and so they just lay down and take it not knowing it's the devil walking all over them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are denying the sovereignty and omniscience of God.

nope.

Satan was the observer. God said to Satan, come here, and take a close look at this fellow.

satan was not a neutral observer. satan instigated a rampage against Job ... satan and his minions destroyed Job's family and holdings in Job 1 and in Job 2-37 we observe Job and Job's friends discussing Job's horrible condition.

God knew that Satan and Job had something in common.

chapter and verse please.

Remember when God asked Job if he was going to make a permanent covenant with Satan, and take him for a servant forever?

God asked Job if Job would covenant with leviathan, a huge, uncontrollable sea creature.

We know it was Satan because he observes all high things, and is king over all the children of pride. Satan was initially presented as observing the high things of heaven.

we know God spoke of satan but neither Job nor his friends were aware of the fact that satan was behind the attack on Job.

Job, his friends, and his family believed the evil Job had endured was from the Lord (Job 42:11). They had no clue that satan was behind all the evil inflicted upon Job.

Isa 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

satan's downfall.

Job 29:7 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth. When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:

It appears Job sat at the gate of the city ... there are several records in Scripture of others who did the same.

And God said, "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.----- Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?-------Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?----Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.----Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; andbind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

I have already gone through these verses with you here.

.

 

[JayWalker]

satan was not a neutral observer.

In John 10:10 Jesus tell us about satan - "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God put a hedge of protection around Job that prevented satan from being able to touch Job.

That was satan's claim in Job 1:9-10 and God allowed satan some access, but told satan he could not touch Job (Job 1:12).

So obviously something changed causing that hedge of protection to no longer be there

In Job 2:6, God told satan Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So satan smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown (Job 2:7).

I have never had a boil, but I know people who have had them. they are very painful.

Those listening to the devil claim God decided He'd like some entertainment one day and just willie nillie decided to take the hedge of protection away for not reason other than having some morbid desire to see Job suffer at the hands of satan... they probably think God went to the kitchen and popped some popcorn before the shows started and watched while getting drunk on beer.

The book of Job describes a terrible attack from satan, as well as discussion Job had with his friends while he was suffering. While I believe the intent of his friends was not to cause Job further suffering, I also believe all of them (Job included) were completely ignorant of the fact that it was satan who afflicted Job.

No, Job got in to fear and that is why the hedge of protection went away so Job ultimately caused his own problems.

I believe God distanced Himself so satan could not accuse God of assisting Job in his time of trial.

Some reject this so they either claim satan is all powerful and the Lord is powerless to stop him, or that God has some morbid desire to see Job suffer at the hands of satan which they of course is ongoing as they think anytime something bad happens to them or their family it's because it was God's will and it was God that brought the evil upon them.

God's power far exceeds satan's. satan knows God is much more powerful than he is, but if satan can hoodwink mankind into believing he holds more power than he actually has, that suits him just fine.

So satan is using the situation with Job to deceive people today deceiving them in to blaming God rather than recognizing it's the devil that has gotten in to their affairs and so they just lay down and take it not knowing it's the devil walking all over them.

God warns us in His Word that we will suffer affliction and persecution. Some folks don't want to hear that, but not wanting to hear does not change the fact that He has warned us.

.