The book of Job

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

disagree Job "didn't know how to be right with God" ... Job did know "how to be right with God" ... as exhibited in the beginning chapters of the book.​

​

what Job did not understand was why he going through the turmoil inflicted upon him ... not by God, but by satan.​

Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Why would Job ask how to be right with God if he was already right with God?

I have gone over this verse with you already, tttallison ... see Post 945. no need for me to reiterate over and over and over, only to have you later ask the same question over and over and over.




reneweddaybyday said:

satan was around since time of Adam. However, I believe Job lived long before Genesis was written. You do not believe so ... even though your own source revealed that Job lived long before the book of Job was written.​

Job didn't live long before Adam. When the book of Job was written has nothing to do with who sanctioned it.

I didn't say Job lived "long before Adam" ... I said "satan was around since time of Adam" and that "I believe Job lived long before Genesis was written".

Have you ever heard of One-Year Bible reading plans? Do you know there is a "chronological" reading plan which is compiled according to the order in which events actually occurred? Here is a link from Blue Letter Bible which sets out the chronological reading plan:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/pdf/dbrp/BLB_DBRP_1Yr_ChronologicalPlan.pdf

Here is the daily reading for the chronological plan:

Day 1 – Genesis 1-3​

Day 2 – Genesis 4-7​

Day 3 – Genesis 8-11​

Day 4 – Job 1-5​

Day 5 – Job 6-9​

Day 6 – Job 10-13​

Day 7 – Job 14-16​

Day 8 – Job 17-20​

Day 9 – Job 21-23​

Day 10 – Job 24-28​

Day 11 – Job 29-31​

Day 12 – Job 32-34​

Day 13 – Job 35-37​

Day 14 – Job 38-39​

Day 15 – Job 40-42​

Day 16 – Genesis 12-15 ... which is where God tells Abraham to leave his country, family, friends and go to a place God will show him.​

biblestudytools.com has the same chronological plan.

bible.com has a chronological plan which places the reading of the book of Job after Genesis and before Exodus. This plan also inserts readings from Chronicles in Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 9, Day 14, and Day 15.

The point is that Bible scholars who assembled the chronological reading plans believe Job lived long ago ... prior to the time the Torah ... the first five books of the Word of God ... was written.

Yes, it was Satan who got his hands dirty, but it was God who sanctioned it.

Agree it was satan "who got his hands dirty" ... although I'm sure satan loves that you put so nicely the fact that satan murdered Job's kids, Job's servants, stole Job's herds.

Do not agree God "sanctioned" satan's actions. When you say God "sanctioned" what satan did, you are saying God approved of satan's actions.

Murder is sin (Exodus 20:13). When you claim God "sanctioned" what satan did, you are saying God "approved" satan murdering Job's kids and servants. God does not approve sin.

Stealing is sin (Exodus 20:15). When you claim God "sanctioned" what satan did, you are saying God "approved" satan stealing Job's herds. God does not approve sin.

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[reneweddaybyday]

Jhn 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Was God evil for having blinded this man?

Jesus did not say God blinded the man. The blindness may have been a congenital defect rather than God having blinded the man.

After Adam and Eve sinned, children were (and still are) begotten after the likeness and image of their parents (Genesis 5:3). You were begotten after the likeness and image of your parents ... I was begotten after the likeness and image of my parents.

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[tttallison]

reneweddaybyday said:

disagree Job "didn't know how to be right with God" ... Job did know "how to be right with God" ... as exhibited in the beginning chapters of the book.​

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what Job did not understand was why he going through the turmoil inflicted upon him ... not by God, but by satan.​

I have gone over this verse with you already, tttallison ... see Post 945. no need for me to reiterate over and over and over, only to have you later ask the same question over and over and over.


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I never considered your answer adequate, though you would make a good defense attorney. Especially for the guilty.

When Job said, "I know it is so of a truth," Job was referring to the words of Bildad. We find in chapter 9 that Job is contending and reproving God. This is the chapter where Job declares God to be unjust, and wishes to have a man to debate with, rather than God, in regards to Job's righteousness. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job requested God send him a man such as Elihu, with whom he figured he could make his argument regarding his own righteousness. Job was wrong though. God had sent a man to deliver his words.

Job 36:1 Elihu also proceeded, and said, Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf. I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
Job could no more answer Elihu, than he could God.
Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Job 32:4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.

Job 32:15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

The next words out of Job's mouth were, Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Yes. Job's reply was to God, but remember, Elihu said he was speaking for God, and when Elihu completed his words to Job God continued the conversation. There was never a need for God to comment on what Elihu had said, because Elihu's words were God's words.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I never considered your answer adequate, though you would make a good defense attorney. Especially for the guilty.

When Job said, "I know it is so of a truth," Job was referring to the words of Bildad. We find in chapter 9 that Job is contending and reproving God.

agree Job was responding to Bildad.

do not agree Job was "contending and reproving God".

has it ever crossed your mind that Job was "contending and reproving" Bildad ... since Job was responding directly to Bildad???

This is the chapter where Job declares God to be unjust, and wishes to have a man to debate with, rather than God, in regards to Job's righteousness. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job requested God send him a man such as Elihu, with whom he figured he could make his argument regarding his own righteousness. Job was wrong though. God had sent a man to deliver his words.

In verse 2 where Job said "I know it is so of a truth" what did Job "know it is so of a truth"? I asked you before and you never responded.

as far as Job "wishes to have a man to debate with, rather than God", you completely misunderstand verse 33 wherein Job stated "Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both".

What Job declared in that verse is that there is no "daysman" between himself and God. The daysman was a referee who has equal authority and control over both sides in a matter. There is no man who has equal authority and control over God because God is so far superior to any man who could act as the daysman between Job and God.

Here is a portion of what is shown in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia concerning the daysman (bold mine):

As used in the King James Version (Job 9:33) the word means an arbitrator, umpire, referee; one who stands in a judicial capacity between two parties, and decides upon the merits of their arguments or case at law. "Neither is there-any daysman (the Revised Version (British and American) "umpire") betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both" (compare Genesis 31:37). It was the eastern custom for a judge to lay his hands upon the heads of the two parties in disagreement, thus emphasizing his adjudicatory capacity and his desire to render an unbiased verdict. Job might consider a human judge as capable of acting as an umpire upon his own claims, but no man was worthy to question the purposes of Yahweh, or metaphorically, to "lay his hands upon" Him.​

Job 36:1 Elihu also proceeded, and said, Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf. I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
Job could no more answer Elihu, than he could God.

Elihu was not the "daysman" Job had requested.

Elihu claiming he had authority to speak on God's behalf is not the same as God saying Elihu spoke on God's behalf.

Elihu believed the same as Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar ... that God was the One who killed Job's kids, killed Job's servants, smote Job with sore boils because Job had sinned as Elihu revealed in vs 21:

Job 36:21 Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.

You know satan was behind all of Job's suffering because God tells you in the opening chapters of the book ... but Elihu did not. Elihu believed just as the other three ... that Job was steeped in sin and needed to repent.

In verse 4, Elihu claimed "For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee" ... and in verse 21, Elihu claimed Job had chosen iniquity (sin).

Elihu did speak falsely because Job had not chosen sin and it is clear that Elihu's claim that he was "perfect in knowledge" is meaningless because he was completely unaware that satan was the one who killed Job's kids, Job's servants, and satan was the one who smote Job with sore boils over his whole body ... all "without cause" (Job 2:3) ... i.e. no sin on Job's part.

Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Job 32:4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.

why skip verse 3, tttallison?

Elihu was burning with anger (vs 2) ... not only against Job, but also against Elihu, Bildad, Zophar (vs 3).

Elihu had listened to the whole discussion between Elihu, Bildad, Zophar, and Job. After Job ended his reply to his friends (Job 31:40) and the "three men ceased to answer Job" (Job 32:1), then Elihu spoke ... and he spoke out of anger.

Job 32:5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.

Job 32:15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

The word "amazed" is translated from the Hebrew word "ḥāṯaṯ" which means to be shattered, to be broken, to be dismayed.

They were dismayed because Elihu basically told Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar that "none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words" (Job 32:11).

Perhaps Job was hopeful that Elihu would not have the same opinion of him ... or the dilemma he faced ... as the other three.

But, we find that Elihu basically reiterated what the other three stated ... he just did so in a more verbose manner ... Elihu used a lot of words to say very little or relay anything other than what had already been stated.

Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Here is what Elihu said to Job in verses 8-13:

Job 33:8-13

8 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,

9 I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.

10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,

11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.

12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.

13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

vs 9 – true ... Job had declared his innocence in his dilemma which, unbeknownst to Job, was wrought by satan (not God).

vs 10 – true ... Job had stated this (Job 13:24).

vs 11 – true ... Job had stated this (Job 13:27).

vs 12 – false ... Job was "just" in his current condition. Job had not sinned. true God is greater than man.

vs 13 – false ... Job was not striving against God. Job was enduring an attack from satan and all of them believed it was God Who afflicted Job. Job begged God to reveal any sin he had committed (Job 13:23) so he could repent. However, God remained distant until after Elihu had finished his condemnation of Job.

And as I have stated before, all five of them (Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu) spoke words of wisdom ... and all five of them also spoke words in error.

The next words out of Job's mouth were, Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Job spoke to God. Job did not respond to anything Elihu said.

Yes. Job's reply was to God, but remember, Elihu said he was speaking for God, and when Elihu completed his words to Job God continued the conversation. There was never a need for God to comment on what Elihu had said, because Elihu's words were God's words.

nope ... Elihu's words were definitely not "God's words".

I just showed you that Elihu erred in a couple of verses from Job 33.

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[tttallison]

agree Job was responding to Bildad.

do not agree Job was "contending and reproving God".

has it ever crossed your mind that Job was "contending and reproving" Bildad ... since Job was responding directly to Bildad??

Is Job speaking of God or Bildad? Who is the "He" that is being referred to? Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Is Job speaking of God or Bildad? Who is the "He" that is being referred to? Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Is Job speaking of God or Bildad? Who is the "He" that is being referred to? Job 9:24The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Who is God speaking to in Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Is Job speaking of God or Bildad?

In Job 9:1, Job replied directly to Bildad ... Job said "I know it is so of a truth". What was Job referring to when he said "I know it is so of a truth"??? ... this is, at the very least, the third time I've asked you this question.

Who is the "He" that is being referred to? Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Is Job speaking of God or Bildad? Who is the "He" that is being referred to? Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Is Job speaking of God or Bildad? Who is the "He" that is being referred to? Job 9:24The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Who is God speaking to in Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job was talking to Bildad about issues I have already gone over with you, tttallison.

you do not agree with what I have submitted to you, but you have no concise rebuttal to anything I and others have submitted.

You have provided no information which reveals any error in understanding on my part I our discussion of the book of Job.

Job 9:17 ... see Post 90, Post 909.

Job 9:23 ... see Post 83.

Job 9:24 ... see Post 945.

Job 40:2 ... see Post 385, Post 663, Post 970.


You continue to ignore what has been explained to you and then ask the same questions a few days or weeks later ... over and over and over.

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[tttallison]

In Job 9:1, Job replied directly to Bildad ... Job said "I know it is so of a truth". What was Job referring to when he said "I know it is so of a truth"??? ... this is, at the very least, the third time I've asked you this question.
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I give simple yes or no questions and you avoid answering them. You are vary evasive, and accuse me of doing what you do all the time. I asked you who was the "He" in the statements Job made, and instead of answering the question, you changed the question to who Job was replying to. Your answer should have been God was the "He" that Job was speaking of.

You asked me what Job was referring to in Job 9:2 when Bildad said, "I know it is so of a truth", and my answer is that I assume he was referring to everything Bildad said in chapter 8.

Can we have a little intellectually honesty, or do we have to win the argument?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I give simple yes or no questions and you avoid answering them. You are vary evasive, and accuse me of doing what you do all the time.

I did not avoid answering anything. That you do not like the answers I provided does not equal me avoiding answering anything.

I asked you who was the "He" in the statements Job made, and instead of answering the question, you changed the question to who Job was replying to. Your answer should have been God was the "He" that Job was speaking of.

The "answer should have been God"? ... really???

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job said this in response to what Bildad claimed in Job 8:3 (i.e. that God rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked). However, it wasn't God Who broke Job with a tempest ... it was satan. God knows it ... satan knows it ... you know it ... I know it ... the ones who did not know it were Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... and they all cast God as the One who killed Job's children, killed Job's servants, killed Job's herds, smote Job with sore boils. Interesting that you do not acknowledge all the erroneous claims the four of them made against God and Job in their attempts to castigate Job in his sorrowful state ... smh ...


Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job said this in response to what Bildad claimed in Job 8:4 (i.e. that God cast away Job's children). It wasn't God who suddenly slayed Job's children, Job's servants, Job's herds ... and God certainly does not laugh at the trial of the innocent. At the link, I explained the verse ... why Job believed it was God Who afflicted him ... that I also do not believe God laughs at the trial of the innocent. You didn't respond back in February when I laid out the meaning of the verse and I will be pleasantly surprised if you do so now.


Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job said this in response to what Bildad claimed in Job 8:3, Job 8:20 (i.e. that God will not cast away the righteous nor reward the evildoers). Do you believe God gave the earth "into the hand of the wicked"? If so, you are incorrect. God gave dominion over the earth to Adam and Eve. According to Luke 4:6, it was Adam and Eve who delivered dominion over the earth to satan at the time Adam and Eve sinned. And according to 2 Corinthians 4:4, it is satan who blinds the minds of unbelievers.


Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God spoke directly to Job and Job answered appropriately ... which is why God continued to reveal Himself to Job in chapter 40, chapter 41. Thereafter, in Job 42, God reprimanded Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar because they had "not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath" (Job 42:7).

You asked me what Job was referring to in Job 9:2 when Bildad said, "I know it is so of a truth", and my answer is that I assume he was referring to everything Bildad said in chapter 8.

I agree Job replied to Bildad. However, I do not believe Job agreed with everything Bildad said. Job did not agree that he had sinned, Job continued to proclaim his innocence, and also begged God to reveal to him if he had sinned so he could repent.

Job pointed out the flaws in Bildad's claims ... not sure Bildad listened based on what he said in Job 18, Job 25.

And if you read Job 25:4, Bildad asked the same question you keep grilling Job about ("How then can man be justified with God?) ... apparently it's okay if Bildad asks it, but boy oh boy, if Job asks it, he's just a rank unbelieving sinner.

Can we have a little intellectually honesty, or do we have to win the argument?

really??? In asking "yes" or "no" questions you are expecting to elicit from me the answer you want (i.e. "win the argument").

I do not agree God broke Job with a tempest without cause (Job 9:17) ... I do not believe God suddenly slew Job's children, Job's servants, Job's herds, nor did God smite Job with boils (Job 9:23) ... I do not believe God handed the earth over to the wicked (Job 9:24).

Job has an excuse for his errant comments ... you have no excuse because you know about satan (or should know from reading Scripture).

Now, how about you quit asking me the same questions over and over and over ... how about you have a "little intellectually honesty" and respond with concise rebuttal when discussing what is actually written in the Book of Job? Thanks.

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[tttallison]

I did not avoid answering anything. That you do not like the answers I provided does not equal me avoiding answering anything.


The "answer should have been God"? ... really???


And if you read Job 25:4, Bildad asked the same question you keep grilling Job about ("How then can man be justified with God?) ... apparently it's okay if Bildad asks it, but boy oh boy, if Job asks it, he's just a rank unbelieving sinner.

really??? In asking "yes" or "no" questions you are expecting to elicit from me the answer you want (i.e. "win the argument").

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reneweddaybyday I wish we could have discussions without a bias one way or the other. I have no stake in either Bildad or Job. You, perhaps, do not see the bias that you have toward Job. Peter said, Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: If God is no respecter of persons, shouldn't we be the same? Job said, Job 13:10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

I have observed this bias in regards to one's child, and I don't fully understand it. My wife and I had good friends that we visited quite often. Our children and their children went to the same school. One of our children observed one of their children smoking at lunch time. My wife and I discussed what we should do. We decided to tell the parents, since we would want them to tell us if it was our child. It was a very big mistake to tell them as it ended our friendship.

Do you realize that you accuse everybody in the book of Job of being wrong in order to uplift Job. You say Job is wrong for believing that God is behind his misfortune. You say the three friends are wrong, for believing God is behind his misfortune. You say Elihu is wrong for believing God is behind his misfortune. You say we misunderstand God when he says he is responsible. You say the writer of the book is wrong for believing God is behind his misfortune.

How can one have an honest discussion on Job with you when you respect his person? I do not have an agenda when it comes to deciphering this book. I want what is true. I love truth. I love God's word. I believe God used Satan to chastise Job in order to win Job's soul. I believe Satan's purpose was for Job to lose his soul. God works for good that which others work for evil.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday I wish we could have discussions without a bias one way or the other. I have no stake in either Bildad or Job. You, perhaps, do not see the bias that you have toward Job. Peter said, Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: If God is no respecter of persons, shouldn't we be the same? Job said, Job 13:10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

If your opinion of Job is unbiased, then why do you not accept what God said about Job before Job underwent the tremendous suffering at the hand of satan?

God tells you three times that Job was a believer who was upright, reverenced God, and eschewed evil ... Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 ... and we have words from Job himself which indicate he believed in God his Redeemer ... Job 1:21, Job 13:15, Job 19:25.

Yet throughout the pages of this thread you have maintained Job suffered because he was on his way to the pit if he didn't repent ... or similar words to that effect.

On the other hand, I have maintained throughout the pages of this thread that all of them ... Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... were believers and they all spoke some great truths and they all spoke in error. While they all spoke truth ... their application was faulty due to ignorance of what we know about satan's involvement from Job 1 and Job 2.

I have observed this bias in regards to one's child, and I don't fully understand it. My wife and I had good friends that we visited quite often. Our children and their children went to the same school. One of our children observed one of their children smoking at lunch time. My wife and I discussed what we should do. We decided to tell the parents, since we would want them to tell us if it was our child. It was a very big mistake to tell them as it ended our friendship.

I do not believe it was a mistake to tell your friends ... sorry that your friends did not acknowledge your care and concern for their child.

Do you realize that you accuse everybody in the book of Job of being wrong in order to uplift Job. You say Job is wrong for believing that God is behind his misfortune. You say the three friends are wrong, for believing God is behind his misfortune. You say Elihu is wrong for believing God is behind his misfortune. You say we misunderstand God when he says he is responsible. You say the writer of the book is wrong for believing God is behind his misfortune.

I have given my explanations why Job and his friends believed God was the One behind his suffering. They were completely unaware of the fact that satan was the one who killed Job's children, killed Job's servants, killed Job's herds, smote Job with sore boils over his whole body.

You and I are not ignorant of the fact that it was satan who was behind the whole fiasco.

Did you read the post I submitted the other day regarding dramatic irony?

reneweddaybyday said:​

The Author wrote the whole scenario from two perspectives ...​

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first, from the perspective of one who was privy to the information concerning the discussion and what satan did thereafter; and​

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second, from the perspective of those who were going through the ordeal and who had no knowledge concerning the discussion between God and satan and the resultant activities of satan in attacking Job and of God in protecting Job; and​

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I believe what was written in Job 42:11 was written from the second perspective ... from the view of those who were ignorant of satan's involvement as they observed what Job went through.​

​

The Author utilized a literary device (dramatic irony) and if we do not take this into account in reading the book of Job, we can come away with an understanding which does not align with what the Author intended.​

Dramatic irony is a legitimate literary device. The reader is aware of critical information while the characters involved remain in the dark. The Book of Job also contains figures of speech, as well as rhetoric.

If we, as readers, do not take into account any of the figures of speech ... or rhetoric ... or dramatic irony ... we may not fully comprehend the intent of the Author, thereby coming to a conclusion never intended by the Author.

When I read the book of Job and I see that Job or any of his friends say God did something satan did, I don't automatically agree with them and conclude God did it. God already told us in Job 2:7 that it was satan who smote Job with sore boils. Job and his friends, not knowing it was satan, conclude God smote Job ... but that does not mean God smote Job, even though there are verses wherein Job or his friends state that God smote Job.

Hope/pray this makes sense.

How can one have an honest discussion on Job with you when you respect his person? I do not have an agenda when it comes to deciphering this book. I want what is true. I love truth. I love God's word.

I respect all of them because I believe they all were believers.

But I am not going to agree with them that God did what I know satan did. I am not going to agree with Job's friends who believed Job was steeped in sin when Scripture clearly reveals Job was an upright man who reverenced God and eschewed evil.

I am going to empathize with Job who endured not only the emotional pain of losing his children, his servants, his herds, but also the physical suffering of boils all over his body, and to top it off, the severe and mistaken criticisms of his friends even as he was going through horrendous suffering.

I have the advantage of knowing what they did not know which is why I can see the error in their statements. I understand their conclusions were due to ignorance of the facts ... but I do not have to agree with the error.

I believe God used Satan to chastise Job in order to win Job's soul.

God already told us from the outset that Job was a believer ... he was upright ... he reverenced God ... he eschewed evil.

I believe Satan's purpose was for Job to lose his soul.

I believe satan's purpose was to fulfill his ministry of steal, kill, destroy (John 10:10).

satan hates all mankind ... especially believers ... and he will continue to utilize whatever means necessary to draw believers away from the Lord. The Lord Jesus Christ is our safe haven. If satan can draw us away from abiding in Him, he can then entice us to sin.

God works for good that which others work for evil.

completely agree. however, that does not mean that every time you or I experience affliction it is because we are being chastened by God. There is a difference between the chastening of the Lord if and when we falter ... and the evil we endure because we live in a world in which satan roams about seeking whom he may devour.

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[tttallison]

If your opinion of Job is unbiased, then why do you not accept what God said about Job before Job underwent the tremendous suffering at the hand of satan?

There is a saying in organizations which states, “The buck stops here.” The guy at the top gets all the bucks because all the decisions are in his hand. It is called responsibility. Satan couldn’t squash an ant without permission from God.

God tells you three times that Job was a believer who was upright, reverenced God, and eschewed evil ... Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 ... and we have words from Job himself which indicate he believed in God his Redeemer ... Job 1:21, Job 13:15, Job 19:25.


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There is a saying in organizations which states, “The buck stops here.” The guy at the top gets all the bucks because all the decisions are in his hand. It is called responsibility. Satan couldn’t squash an ant without permission from God. What does the word believer represent to you? Does it mean that you have a personal relationship with God, and you are on your way to heaven? I ask this because even the devils believe in God.

Does being a good person automatically give you a personal relationship with God, and an everlasting trip to heaven? I ask this because God says there is none righteous, no not one.

I know that Job said his redeemer liveth, and implied that he would see him at the latter day.

But here is where you are stumbling. Job’s reasoning was that God was going to save him because he was a good righteous person. Is that a method for acquiring redemption?

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

 

[tttallison]

If your opinion of Job is unbiased, then why do you not accept what God said about Job before Job underwent the tremendous suffering at the hand of satan?

There is a saying in organizations which states, “The buck stops here.” The guy at the top gets all the bucks because all the decisions are in his hand. It is called responsibility. Satan couldn’t squash an ant without permission from God.

God tells you three times that Job was a believer who was upright, reverenced God, and eschewed evil ... Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 ... and we have words from Job himself which indicate he believed in God his Redeemer ... Job 1:21, Job 13:15, Job 19:25.




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Does being a good person automatically give you a personal relationship with God, and an everlasting trip to heaven? I ask this because God says there is none righteous, no not one.

I know that Job said his redeemer liveth, and implied that he would see him at the latter day.

But here is where you are stumbling. Job’s reasoning was that God was going to save him because he was a good righteous person. Is that a method for acquiring redemption?

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

If your opinion of Job is unbiased, then why do you not accept what God said about Job before Job underwent the tremendous suffering at the hand of satan?​

There is a saying in organizations which states, “The buck stops here.” The guy at the top gets all the bucks because all the decisions are in his hand. It is called responsibility. Satan couldn’t squash an ant without permission from God.

just because God allowed what occurred in Job's life, does that excuse what satan did to Job's family and holdings (chapter 1) and to Job himself (chapter 2)?

I lay at the feet of satan and hold him responsible for what he did ... I do not place the blame for satan's actions at the feet of God.

When you sin, do you rationalize your sin and conclude that "well, God's responsible ... I couldn't sin without permission from God". That is total nonsense and goes against every verse wherein God specifically commands us not to sin.




reneweddaybyday said:

God tells you three times that Job was a believer who was upright, reverenced God, and eschewed evil ... Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 ... and we have words from Job himself which indicate he believed in God his Redeemer ... Job 1:21, Job 13:15, Job 19:25.​

There is a saying in organizations which states, “The buck stops here.” The guy at the top gets all the bucks because all the decisions are in his hand. It is called responsibility. Satan couldn’t squash an ant without permission from God.

Treating organizations' slogans (human wisdom) as equal to God's wisdom is foolishness:

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

What does the word believer represent to you? Does it mean that you have a personal relationship with God, and you are on your way to heaven?

In our day and time, the word "believer" means a person believes Jesus Christ is Lord ... that the Lord Jesus Christ died for his or her sins according to the Scriptures ... that He was buried, and He rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures.

I ask this because even the devils believe in God.

James 2:18-20

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

While satan believes there is one God ... it is wholly apparent from satan's works that he does not believe in God, nor does satan obey God ... satan and his minions do not obey God as do the "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation". satan and his minions attack "them who shall be heirs of salvation" in their efforts to destroy them.

Does being a good person automatically give you a personal relationship with God, and an everlasting trip to heaven? I ask this because God says there is none righteous, no not one.

I know that Job said his redeemer liveth, and implied that he would see him at the latter day.

But here is where you are stumbling. Job’s reasoning was that God was going to save him because he was a good righteous person. Is that a method for acquiring redemption?

I am not relying on anything Job said about himself ... although Job acknowledging his Redeemer is indicative that Job was a true believer.

I am relying on what God said about Job. God said Job was upright ... God said Job reverenced Him ... God said Job eschewed evil. That is what believers are (upright) and that is how believers behave (reverence God and turn away from evil).

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Explained the context within which this verse sits to you many times.

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Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Elihu misspoke. Job never said his righteousness is more than God's.

Since you believe Job said his righteousness is more than God's, please provide chapter and verse wherein Job stated his righteousness is more than God's.

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

ah, yes, the words of Eliphaz which started this whole rabbit trail into something Job never said or believed about himself.

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[ZNP]

Why do bad things happen to good people?

The New Testament fully addresses this question. It defines what a "good person" is. We are then given an example in a parable by the Lord. Finally, we can look at the life of Paul in Acts and address this.

1. What is a good person?

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

If you look at this verse it is clearly saying that nothing that happens to a person that fulfills this criteria will work out for bad. It may appear bad, but it will work together for good. In the final analysis it will not be something bad, it will be something that worked together for good. Now their are two criteria and we can use this as the definition of a "good person".

A. They love God

and

B. They are called according to purpose.

The following examples given by the Lord and lived out by Paul will explain in detail what those two criteria are.

2. What did Jesus Teach?

In the parable of the good samaritan he gave us an example of a "good person" calling the Samaritan a good Samaritan. So then, let's examine these two criteria.

A. How do we know that this Samaritan loved God?

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

A. In that story of the good Samaritan we see a priest and a Levite, both of whom claim they love God but don't love their brother who has fallen among thieves. They are the liars in this parable. The Good Samaritan loved his brother, that is the point of the parable, it answers the question who is my brother that I should love him, so from his behavior we can see that the Good Samaritan loves God even without him saying that while those who say they love God are liars.

B. Is he called according to purpose? Yes, we have a purpose in life, to help those that we can help. Jesus told the man to "go and do likewise" that is a commission he was given. What you will notice is people who were saved out of street gangs wind up having the gospel to people in street gangs. People who were saved out of prison have a prison ministry. You could argue that the guy who was in the street gang, that was bad things happening to him. But it has worked out for good because now that he is saved the Lord is working through him to minister to others in the same situation. Having experienced the "bad things" has helped him to have empathy for others.

3. What did we see in Paul's life that explains this?

In the book of Acts Paul is arrested, put in prison, even though there are no charges concerning any laws that Rome has that he broke. He is forced to appeal to Caesar because they are trying to kill him. While sailing to Rome they are shipwrecked and the entire boat is destroyed. Finally he is bitten by a poisonous viper.

These are things that happen to everyone, Paul is not the first person to be falsely accused of a crime, nor is he the first person to be put into prison for a crime he didn't commit. He is also not the only person to go through a shipwreck, everyone on that ship went through the same experience. Not only so but he is not the only person to get bitten by a poisonous snake, that happens every year. So the first principle is this:

Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

Our salvation doesn't keep us from experiencing things that others experience, rather our getting saved enables us to be a conqueror in all these things.

So then how did these things which happened to Paul work out for good?

1. Paul wrote his prison epistles while in prison.

• Ephesians: Focuses on the identity of the Church as the body of Christ and God's eternal plan to unite all things in Jesus.
• Philippians: Emphasizes spiritual joy, humility, and steadfastness in the face of suffering and anxiety.
• Colossians: Proclaims the supreme lordship and absolute sufficiency of Christ over all creation against false teachings.
• Philemon: Acts as a personal appeal for forgiveness and Christian brotherhood regarding a runaway slave named Onesimus.

The church needed those epistles and by being put in prison God stopped his missionary work, cleared his calendar of speaking engagements, and allowed him to focus on writing these letters.

2. Paul told the people on the ship not to sail saying it would result in loss. They didn't listen to him. But he didn't respond with "ha, you should have listened to me, now you have got what you deserve". No, he said "You should have listened to me, but don't worry, I have been praying for you and God has given me everyone on this ship, none of you will die but the ship will be destroyed because you didn't listen." Because of the shipwreck everyone on that ship realized they owed their life to Paul who had prayed for them.

3. The snake biting Paul led the people on the island to bring him their sick, he prayed for them and they were healed. Because of that they gave the people another ship and filled it with stuff. So not only do these people owe Paul their lives, they also owe him for restoring their boat and everything they lost.

The bad things that happened to Paul worked out for good because he was called according to purpose. He was an apostle going about establishing churches. Putting him in prison stopped him from doing that but then he wrote letters that have been building up the church for 2,000 years.

Imagine you are going to appear before Caesar who more than likely will be happy to kill Paul if he is bribed or if it makes his life easier with the Jews. But now Paul arrives in Rome with 200+ people all willing to testify that Paul saved their lives! Also, even though they tried to keep Paul from raising up churches what about the people on that island, don't you think the people were not only healed but also raised up churches? What about the 200+ on that ship, do you think they might have gotten saved? What about those in Rome and Italy?

 

[tttallison]

Agree it was satan "who got his hands dirty" ... although I'm sure satan loves that you put so nicely the fact that satan murdered Job's kids, Job's servants, stole Job's herds.

Do not agree God "sanctioned" satan's actions. When you say God "sanctioned" what satan did, you are saying God approved of satan's actions.

Murder is sin (Exodus 20:13). When you claim God "sanctioned" what satan did, you are saying God "approved" satan murdering Job's kids and servants. God does not approve sin.

Stealing is sin (Exodus 20:15). When you claim God "sanctioned" what satan did, you are saying God "approved" satan stealing Job's herds. God does not approve sin.

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Disagree with your premise that God can sin. Have you not considered that God has ownership of everything? God is the potter who has made everything. There is nothing, or no one who is over God. Does God have a right to destroy that which is corrupt? That which he made? There is corruption because God gave us a free will. Would you prefer that God had not given us a free will? Who has known the mind of God?

God is good, God is righteous, and God loves us. What a marvelous God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Disagree with your premise that God can sin.

I did not say "God can sin". I said that under your premise ("it was Satan who got his hands dirty, but it was God who sanctioned it") you are saying that God approved of satan's actions.

I do not believe God approved ... did God allow? yes, but God did not approve and satan will answer to God for what he did to Job, as well as what satan did to all mankind from Adam and Eve to today to future generations.

Have you not considered that God has ownership of everything? God is the potter who has made everything. There is nothing, or no one who is over God. Does God have a right to destroy that which is corrupt? That which he made?

Are you saying God killed Job's children, Job's servants, Job's herds? ... God stole Job's oxen? ... God smote Job with sore boils over his whole body?

There is corruption because God gave us a free will. Would you prefer that God had not given us a free will? Who has known the mind of God?

this has nothing to do with our discussion concerning Job.

God is good, God is righteous, and God loves us. What a marvelous God.

agree.

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