Loss of salvation???

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So you aren’t familiar with the Law of Christ in the NT; the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is what we are called to follow.
Did you know that God and Christ are the same? :) Christ is not against His own laws that He asked us to keep if we love Him Exo20:6 John14:15?

Why the endurance of the saints still keep the commandments of God in the NT Rev14:12 because love to God and love to man never changes, it was given directly by God, which is Jesus Christ, His Testimony, what the entire Bible is about John5:39. Who has a greater Testimony than God Himself? No one that I am aware of, He is the only God we are called to serve Isa56:6 and worship Exo20:11 Rev14:7. He tells us how- what matters is what our response is to His call. Heb3:7-19 Heb4:6 Heb4:11
 
Mankind's propensity toward believing on the basis of wishful thinking versus upholding ONLY what scripture actually says, yes. You're right. That will never see the light of day for a conclusion that satisfies all parties. That isn't saying much of anything at all but rather a recognition of hos things are for those who fail to read scripture for what it says and do not conform themselves to Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).



Claims in and of themselves are meaningless. What some claim on the basis of the clear language of scripture, in context and on the basis of systematic oversight, as a counter to what others claims...so what? What's of value is to discuss what's actually stated, in context and by way of systematic study, all stacked up against wishful thinking and eisegesis so common among so many professing believers. Many have said in these forums, "Oh, I had not noticed that before...thanks for the insight." There's value in discussion over scripture and its clarity of language and in-depth study, coupled with prayer and receptiveness of Holy Spirit.



Sidestepping the worthless ad hominem, what exactly are you addressing as the point everyone agrees? Please clarify.



Please spare us the attempt at a tongue lashing. There are many meaningful and insightful discussions in here, and your seeming lack of recognizing that is your own problem, not a problem lying at the doorstep of others.

MM
And before you go sticking your foot in your mouth any further note that in my post I agree that you cannot lose your salvation.

I then expanded the conversation in reference to the gift of salvation given by Jesus by saying that you could throw the gift away. Your contention that nobody would do this is ignorant. For example let's say your wife dies in the car accident your mother has a heart attack and dies and your child is strung out on drugs and you don't understand and are at wit's end in trying to have Jesus give you some form of answer but after such a long period you just give up and because you're angry with Jesus you give him the finger and start promoting anything that is not Christian as if to literally rebel against God

This kind of thing plays out over and over again throughout the history of Christianity people not being able to endure some of their circumstances and unable to obtain good support simply give up on God and resent all of the wasted time trying to follow a God who won't listen at least from their viewpoint.

There is also the concept of a real apostate mentioned in Hebrews I believe as well as in Revelation by definition an apostate has tasted the fruits has been a part of the body yet turns completely against and works against God that is the apostate

Having faith in Jesus saves us but it is easily conceivable and evidenced in history that some people simply did not have the faith because something went haywire that they couldn't understand and got mad at Jesus How could somebody who turned on Jesus and actively works against him be acceptable into the Heavenly realms. The same God that lets you make that choice continues to let you make that choice and if some choose to depart from the faith and become an adversary God is sitting there saying so be it I won't force you into heaven

We have free will
 
So let me get the straight all you are trying to do is provoke me so that you have this glorious view that everybody else should believe in that has no 100% proof and that I speak a different View which I will agree it has no 100% proof

Tell me who is being more honest you who is decided one way because of your viewpoints and me who has said there are two ways to view this subject and neither of them are 100% provable in addition this is a matter of faith which is what Christianity is all about.

So tell me oh great psychologist would you like to continue arguing to make yourself look better or would you like to help those who might be seeking an answer by explaining both sides of the coin

Wow. This is an amazing creation from silence and emptiness, pulled from the vacuum of something I dare not utter.

Shadow boxing never succeeds in only one in the fight being knocked down...

MM
 
Folks, all in Christ are called to far greater things than to strive in your own effort to feebly try and retain your new birth and being a new man. Just go with the leading of the indwelling Spirit:


MM
 
Wow. This is an amazing creation from silence and emptiness, pulled from the vacuum of something I dare not utter.

Shadow boxing never succeeds in only one in the fight being knocked down...

MM
It's not a fight it's discussion which apparently you're not willing to engage in only and to try to poke holes and somebody else's comment which you failed to do because you can't
 
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For example let's say your wife dies in the car accident your mother has a heart attack and dies and your child is strung out on drugs and you don't understand and are at wit's end in trying to have Jesus give you some form of answer but after such a long period you just give up and because you're angry with Jesus you give him the finger and start promoting anything that is not Christian as if to literally rebel against God
The Bible answers this.

1 Peter 1:6-9 KJV
6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Trials prove the genuineness of real faith. Those who turn back did not have that faith, were not regenerated.

1 John 2:19 KJV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Much love!
 
The Bible answers this.

1 Peter 1:6-9 KJV
6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Trials prove the genuineness of real faith. Those who turn back did not have that faith, were not regenerated.

1 John 2:19 KJV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Much love!
This just not address somebody who threw away their faith but somebody who failed in their faith
 
That's not what these passages say.

The true remain true.

Much love!
Okay in the interest of common sense I will back off of my commentary with one last statement all these verses are great even the one that you just quoted which says that somebody that was striving with you and failed in their faith and left was never shaved I get it I understand these verses make perfect sense good defensive keeping your salvation this is not what I'm talking about

What I am referring to is somebody who is saved. They are saved. And then they decide to give God the finger and work against him that person apostates themselves and will not be in heaven God is not going to force anyone into heaven it would make him a liar when it came to giving us free will
 
That's not what these passages say.

The true remain true.

Much love!
I do 100% agree with that comment because what that verse actually says is that ultimately the person was never saved to begin with and therefore failed their faith and we're never part of them which doesn't address what I'm saying in my other post
 
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True faith does indeed encourage and build good works, but the works are not the basis of our salvation. THAT is where so many get it wrong.

OK so if one walks after the flesh living in sin are they still in right standing or not?

God said only those that are led of the Spirit are the Sons of God - Romans 8:14

God said if we live after the flesh we shall die spiritually (separated from Him), but if we through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh (sin) we shall live (not be separated from Him) - Romans 8:13


How? Where does it say that...without injecting salvation into those passages and contexts that speak on sin and backsliding that many point at as their illegitimate support for the alleged loss of salvation?

OK so your claim apparently is that one can live in sin and still be saved. That's false doctrine.

Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Believing works are not the basis of our salvation is not a matter of teaching anyone any aspect of loose living in any ol' way one chooses...contrary to the legalistic chumps who say otherwise.

God is not mocked, what we sow is what we reap.

That's what you are calling "legalism". God said claiming we don't reap what we sow is mocking Him.

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



please define for everyone where that line rests over which one allegedly looses his salvation dare he step over it.

James 4:17
to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Then we see in Gal 6:7,8 that sowing to the flesh causes on to reap corruption.

Are you claiming when we sin we do not reap corruption? That's mocking God because God tells us in His Word that we reap what we sowm

WHY would anybody want to argue in favor of being able to sin and still be saved unless that wanted to engage in sinful behavior?


You too are sinning on a daily basis, as are we all.

No, that's not true.. It's a very rare occurrence for the mature believer to sin:

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Galatians 5:16
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


That does indeed describe the lost.

That was written to Christians.



Really? Paul disagrees:

Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7 man is not a Christian. We know that because he says he is sold under sin.

The answer to Romans 7 is Romans 8 so keep reading

Sadly you've been sold a bill of faulty goods by attending churches that teach religion instead of God's Word.


This is so overlooked by the purely religious out there who are works-based salvationists.

You should know your Bible better than you do:

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Bottom line here is those we are led by the Holy Spirit will stop engaging in sinful behavior and those that continue in sin are being led by demons
 
Did you know that God and Christ are the same? :) Christ is not against His own laws that He asked us to keep if we love Him Exo20:6 John14:15?

Why the endurance of the saints still keep the commandments of God in the NT Rev14:12 because love to God and love to man never changes, it was given directly by God, which is Jesus Christ, His Testimony, what the entire Bible is about John5:39. Who has a greater Testimony than God Himself? No one that I am aware of, He is the only God we are called to serve Isa56:6 and worship Exo20:11 Rev14:7. He tells us how- what matters is what our response is to His call. Heb3:7-19 Heb4:6 Heb4:11
Jesus is not God the Father, He is God the Son sent by His Father to us. This is why it says Us in the beginning. When Jesus died and rose, He ascended to heaven and sat down at the RIGHT-hand side of His Father.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, having nailed them to the cross. 😇
 
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Jesus is not God the Father, He is God the Son sent by His Father to us. This is why it says Us in the beginning. When Jesus died and rose, He ascended to heaven and sat down at the RIGHT-hand side of His Father.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, having nailed them to the cross. 😇
No, Jesus is not the Father and I never said He was, He is the Great I AM of the OT John8:48 He is our Creator Exo20:11 Col1:16 and He is the one speaking His Laws at Mt Sinai Exo20:1-17 that He came to make greater Isa42:21 not make lessor sadly as most teach.

Jesus did not nail love to God or to mankind at the Cross- the handwritten ordinances Col2:14KJV written by Moses 2Chron33:8NKJV was nailed at the Cross, not the law of God that the saints of God keep until the very end of time Rev14:12
 
No, Jesus is not the Father and I never said He was, He is the Great I AM of the OT John8:48 He is our Creator Exo20:11 Col1:16 and He is the one speaking His Laws at Mt Sinai Exo20:1-17 that He came to make greater Isa42:21 not make lessor sadly as most teach.

Jesus did not nail love to God or to mankind at the Cross- the handwritten ordinances Col2:14KJV written by Moses 2Chron33:8NKJV was nailed at the Cross, not the law of God that the saints of God keep until the very end of time Rev14:12
Correction of verse - Jesus is the Great I AM. Correct verse is John 8:58
 
Good works do not save us that is true.

But walking after bad works - living after the flesh - certainly causes one to be unsaved.
Look at the places where Paul describes salvation in detail and you will see that someone who is being saved will not walk after bad works. Your second premise is fictional.
 
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Shoot.
You look worse than me!!

So I'll answer:

Q: HOW IS ONE CHOSEN?
A: THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED.

THE WHOSOEVERS of the WORLD.

OK.
You could go back and rest now.



View attachment 287245

The mental gymnastics, that is used to keep mainstream doctrine supported, pushes into mental illness. Not all the time, but some of the times. I'm truly sorry, that's how I see it, to be honest. I will never comprehend, how people derive meaning from being chosen (elected), to mean, if I just believe (decide to give life to Jesus). Literally different words. From a strictly logical or philosophical point a view, it's a logical fallacy.

Some of my most head shaking discussions include:
1. Pretribulation rapture
2. Armenism
3. Flat Earth (although not Biblical, many flat earthers claim it's Biblical)
4. Attack of the SDA Church

Call it faith, if you want, but I won't ask you to explain. I have learned from experience, asking people to clarify, mostly ends in a rabbit trail, that doesn't make a lick of sense, to those who seek clarity.

By the way....

"Happy Unbirthday to you." lol Sorry for the late Unbirthday wishes, I have been busy trying to stay away from Unbirthday cakes lately.

1775039938598.png

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
 
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Look at the places where Paul describes salvation in detail and you will see that someone who is being saved will not walk after bad works. Your second premise is fictional.
LOL
What you've stated is pretty serious stuff Roger.
There are some ON THIS VERY FORUM that walk after bad works.
Apparently, you're not aware of the attacks and insults Ive received .
THIS is doing bad works.

It doesn't take murder you know.

So YOUR premise is faulty.

Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS when he exhorts them to do good works and to now become hardened of heart.

You, like many do, change the very meaning of NT teachings to suit your own ideology.
 
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The mental gymnastics, that is used to keep mainstream doctrine supported, pushes into mental illness. Not all the time, but some of the times. I'm truly sorry, that's how I see it, to be honest. I will never comprehend, how people derive meaning from being chosen (elected), to mean, if I just believe (decide to give life to Jesus). Literally different words. From a strictly logical or philosophical point a view, it's a logical fallacy.
Well, to be totally honest,,,which I usually am...
I don't understand what you've just written.

I THINK what you're saying is that you do not agree that a person could just choose to be saved.
To that I would have a question.....
Is God just?

What is justice?

I do understand that it gets tiring to debate the same stuff over and over.
Been doing this many years now and I pretty much have it down to two topics:
Both soteriological in nature:
UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY,,,also known as OSAS which is taught nowhere in the NT.
REFORMED THEOLOGY/CALVINIS....which I believe changes the nature of God.


Since I can't be sure of your position...I won't continue further.
I like to discuss and not argue....

Some of my most head shaking discussions include:
1. Pretribulation rapture
I don't believe the rapture is anywhere to be found in scripture.

2. Armenism
Most of the non-calvinist don't even know who Arminius was and really don't care.
Calvinism vs Arminianism is a false dichotomy.

3. Flat Earth (although not Biblical, many flat earthers claim it's Biblical)
It's an insteresting theory.
But from outer space the earth looks like a ball to me.
We could both be wrong and it could just be an optical illusion.
:rolleyes:


4. Attack of the SDA Church
No church should be attacked.
Every denomination has something wrong.
We're all Christian trying to find our way to understand what Jesus taught.
This includes the SDA. the CC and every other Christian church.

Call it faith, if you want, but I won't ask you to explain. I have learned from experience, asking people to clarify, mostly ends in a rabbit trail, that doesn't make a lick of sense, to those who seek clarity.
True.
But I like to discuss theology and live in a Catholic country where bible study is rather surfacy in nature...
so I find more meat here --- unfortunately, also some that claim to be following Christ but don't act like it.
We must take the fat with the meat.

By the way....

"Happy Unbirthday to you." lol Sorry for the late Unbirthday wishes, I have been busy trying to stay away from Unbirthday cakes lately.

View attachment 287268

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
John 15....Jesus chose the Apostles.
He was talking about the Apostles.

And I like the unbirthday wishes.
It's a good idea.
I also would like unbirthdays.
Had enough of 'em !
:cool:
 
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It's not a fight it's discussion which apparently you're not willing to engage in only and to try to poke holes and somebody else's comment which you failed to do because you can't
Yes sir.
Have noticed the same.
 
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No church should be attacked.
Every denomination has something wrong.
I think there are people who are wrong in every church but God promised He has a church


Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
  1. Keep the commandments of God
  2. Have the testimony of Jesus Christ
What is the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God's people keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy. This is the definition of the saints. (Also see Revelation 14:12.) There has to be a group of people that meets this specification.

Revelation describes the mother of harlots. This is a mother church and her daughters.

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

God's people are being called out of her.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

There must be a people that meet God's specification of obedience and true worship, and have a correct understanding of Bible prophecy.