Its sad that people think what they do could earn them the right to stand in front of God forgiven.. All we can do is pray God works through them as he will the jews..
Loss of salvation???
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The question then becomes....
does correct doctrine save a person?
From the above it seems that you might believe this.
If doctrine saves a person...we better get down to business and make sure we understand everything correctly.
How could that be done?
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror
for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like
He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock
But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” — Revelation 22:14 (NKJV)
Well, to be totally honest,,,which I usually am...
I don't understand what you've just written.
I THINK what you're saying is that you do not agree that a person could just choose to be saved.
To that I would have a question.....
Is God just?
What is justice?
I do understand that it gets tiring to debate the same stuff over and over.
Been doing this many years now and I pretty much have it down to two topics:
Both soteriological in nature:
UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY,,,also known as OSAS which is taught nowhere in the NT.
REFORMED THEOLOGY/CALVINIS....which I believe changes the nature of God.
Since I can't be sure of your position...I won't continue further.
I like to discuss and not argue....
I don't believe the rapture is anywhere to be found in scripture.
Most of the non-calvinist don't even know who Arminius was and really don't care.
Calvinism vs Arminianism is a false dichotomy.
It's an insteresting theory.
But from outer space the earth looks like a ball to me.
We could both be wrong and it could just be an optical illusion.
No church should be attacked.
Every denomination has something wrong.
We're all Christian trying to find our way to understand what Jesus taught.
This includes the SDA. the CC and every other Christian church.
True.
But I like to discuss theology and live in a Catholic country where bible study is rather surfacy in nature...
so I find more meat here --- unfortunately, also some that claim to be following Christ but don't act like it.
We must take the fat with the meat.
John 15....Jesus chose the Apostles.
He was talking about the Apostles.
And I like the unbirthday wishes.
It's a good idea.
I also would like unbirthdays.
Had enough of 'em !
I agree except don't 1Cor. 15:51 & 1Thes. 4:17 teach a rapture?
Re Cal & Arm, I think the issue is between TULIP & MFW. (I choose the latter.)
Unfortunately Everlasting Grace....
what YOU THINK is not important...
what IS important is what JESUS taught.
And HE taught that good works are necessary.
You must have skipped over Matthew 5 and 7 and 25.
Paul taught the same.....he actually taught what Jesus taught.
Amazing.
What is sad is that those such as yourself do not want to know THE TRUTH....
but only what is comforting to them.
Jesus said that before you decide to follow Him...you better count the cost.
Looks like the cost is just too high for some folk that think they are following Him.
Perhaps you could post some scripture which states that good works are not necessary?
Doubt you'll find any because it doesn't exist.
Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.1 Timothy 6:17-19
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.Romans 2:6-10
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all that you do be done in love.Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Still don't believe that we're to do good works?
Plenty more where the above came from.
It's called the NT.
It teaches what Jesus taught.
Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
I think some doctrines are salvational like:
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” — Revelation 22:14 (NKJV)
And other doctrines that are not salvational like prayer style -praying out loud or silent.
I believe God judges us based on the light we have and believe many people will be saved who had the wrong doctrine but earnestly followed God based on how they knew. We are so blessed and fortunate to have God's Word to be the light to our path Psa119:105 not everyone before us had this treasure.
The demeaning comment about my alleged childishness already poisoned the well of discussion. therefore your side of this was and is already littered with holes.
MM
Forget what MFW is....I agree except don't 1Cor. 15:51 & 1Thes. 4:17 teach a rapture?
Re Cal & Arm, I think the issue is between TULIP & MFW. (I choose the latter.)
But I probably agree with you.
Let's take a look:
1 Corinthians 15:51
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”;e the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.
Where, O Death, Is Your Victory?
(Hosea 13:9–14)
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
I'd say that the above is speaking about the resurrection and not the rapture.
Verse 51: When Jesus returns, at the end of the world, some will still be alive...
they will not be sleeping/dead.
In the twinkling of an eye,,,we will all be changed into our glorified bodies.
The dead will be raised imperishable....never to die again.
And those found to be living will also be clothed with the imperishable....the glorified body that will never die again.
Where do you see the rapture above?
1 Thessalanians 4:17
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
The above is also speaking about the resurrection, at the end of the world.
Jesus will bring with Him those that had already died. Verse 14
Those who are still alive when Jesus returns will not go before those that are already dead. Verse 15
When Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise first. Be with Him. Verse 16
Those that are still living when Jesus returns,,,will be caught up with those that had already died so that they become one groupl
Verse 17
I don't see any rapture there either.
The question is:
How many times is Jesus coming back?
One or Two?
If we want to accept that the rapture is true,,,Jesus will have to come back twice:
Once for the rapture of the saved,,,and then again for everyone at the end of the world.
Where are these two times in scripture??
We agree.I think some doctrines are salvational like:
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” — Revelation 22:14 (NKJV)
And other doctrines that are not salvational like prayer style -praying out loud or silent.
I believe God judges us based on the light we have and believe many people will be saved who had the wrong doctrine but earnestly followed God based on how they knew. We are so blessed and fortunate to have God's Word to be the light to our path Psa119:105 not everyone before us had this treasure.
Sorry I wasn't clear.
Some doctrine will cause us to be saved or lost.
Correct.
I like to say the following, but it can't be repeated for every post:
In order to be saved a person must:
1. Believe IN God.
2. Obey God.
This is a must.
The crazy thing to me is why this is even a debate, if we love Him. Why would we not want to do what our Maker asks of us.
If you love Me, keep My commandments Exo20:6 John14:15
God bless!
Please define your definition of "right standing."
Who, then, loses salvation after having put to death the deeds of the flesh? Who turns back from that after they are under the sanctifying Power of Holy Spirit?
Some in here talk much about loss of salvation, as if that were possible, but they mostly point at unbelievers who went through some religious conversion and rituals, such as in the RCC, and therefore allegedly saved, transformed, sanctified, filled with Holy Spirit, et al, on the basis of some religious experience and exercises and yet are not saved nor filled with Holy Spirit. One can't lose what they never had so far as I can ascertain.
Do you not still sin...daily? Where's that line? Please give specifics rather than generalities.
Additionally, who on this earth is living in sinless perfection? Who among the truly saved go back to what they once were? How does one put Christ to shame a second time after having been sealed by Holy Spirit? Is Holy Spirit's seal so weak that one can lose salvation? Where is that in scripture? Is the Father so uncaring about His own Spirit that He forfeits His own Spirit on the basis of taking back salvation once given in earnest? Where is that loss stated in scripture?
These are the questions the salvation loss gang continue to ignore, side-step and even run from while continuing to vomit their philosophies about alleged loss among the truly saved. The slight-of-hand in all this is the "obedience" dodge. Obedience saves not one soul. If it did, then Christ died in vain, so some think they can circumvent the irrationality of their position by assuming a truly saved individual whose sin was nailed to that cross somehow goes back to what they once were, and anyone not agreeing with them believes allegedly believes a truly born again man can go back to living a life of adultery, murder, rape, etc., etc., etc. That trashy form of discussion is nothing but a deflection into pure hypotheticals as if such were real.
See that last statement you just quoted? When one is led by the Spirit, they ARE the sons of God. Who, therefore lives after the flesh among the truly saved? It is those who are not born again and led by the Spirit are they who live after the flesh. So, what's the issue here? Where does loss of salvation have any foothold given that Paul didn't even address such an alleged loss?
MM
If you knew what you were talking about in the my conversation with another, your statement might have been written in a way that made sense.
MM
If the person was never saved to begin with....
and they walk away....
how do you know that YOU are saved?
Proponents of THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH don't seem to realize that they are actually
removing all security from salvation.
Give it some thought...
I've dealt with you MM.
You spewed more insults at me in the first month I was here than I heard in 10 years on these Forums in general.
Happily for me,,,I don't really get insulted.
In fact, I've stopped conversing with you.
YOU are not the person to complain that someone made some statement or other about you.
If you can't take the heat...
stay out of the kitchen.
And try to behave as Jesus would want you to instead.
Gods children are doers.
You think you honoring thesabbath and serving someone makes you worthy of salvation? You spit on the cross..
I believe joining ourselves to the LORD and serving Him the way He asks not how we "feel" allows one to actually serve Him instead trying to do so on our own terms.
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD
Isa 56:6 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
God tells us everything we need to know. The problem I see is people want all of God's Blessings on their terms and not God's Isa56:2 they want to serve the LORD on their terms and not how He asks Isa56:6
If we are not serving the LORD we are by default serving another. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16KJV so I take the invite God made to everyone on how He wants us to serve Him, seriously and find spending quality time in communion with Him on the day He set aside to do so Gen2:1-3 Exo20:8-11 Heb 4:3-4 a blessing and delight Isa58:13-14.
We want to be a servant of the LORD- He personally told us how- will we hear Him? Heb3:7-19
Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
-"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.""
Galatians 3:10-11 NKJV
-"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Galatians 3:13-14 NKJV
-"But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
II Corinthians 3:14-17 NKJV
TruthDestroyer, you still do not understand these verses. what law is Paul speaking of here? do you know? is the law a curse? or is it something else Paul means here in connection to the ""law"? what is the significance of the veil?