Loss of salvation???

[SabbathBlessing]

You said, “God and Christ are the same”, so this is a very vague statement to be left alone.

How is this vague? Do you not belive Christ is God? Can you please share that from Scripture.

I believe you’re conflating 2 different things. You’re obviously ignoring what Jesus teaches in the NT. We are NOT under the Jewish Levitical Laws, anymore. God gave us no such commands to continue under those Laws. If anything, He warned us not to continue in them.

Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath day and said it was MADE FOR mankind, the Sabbath day is the holy day of the LORD thus saith the LORD Exo20:10 Isa58:13 that started before Jew. before Israel, just man and God Exo20:11. Why God- thus saith the LORD invited everyone to keep the Sabbath and serve Him. Isa56:6

So perhaps its not me conflating these two things. These are all thus saith the LORDS so to me there is no one greater to give His Truth than God Himself who is Jesus.

You say not to continue in them Jesus said the opposite

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Least in heaven I do not believe means one will be there if we read the next few verses Mat5:20-30

So while you may say one thing, I am going to believe what Jesus said.

-"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.""
Galatians 3:10-11 NKJV

This is Paul speaking and he came with a serious warning about what people would do with his writings 2Peter3:16 Paul taught everything has to be according to Christ Col2:8 Jesus made it plain to keep His commandments if we love Him John14:15 don't break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19 Paul taught breaking them is sin Rom7:7 dishonoring God Rom2:21-23 being an enemy to God Rom8:7-8 and left outside God's Kingdom Gal5:20 just as Christ taught Mat7:21-23

So lets look at the context of the law Paul is referring to, the law of love the Testimony of God, the Ten Commandments? No he plainly says what was written in the book of the law, which is the handwritten ordinances that were contrary and against us Col2:14KJV written by Moses 2Chron33:8NKJV that was outside the ark of God's covenant Deut31:24-26 not the Ten Commandments that God wrote Exo31:18 that tell us how to love God with all our heart, mind and soul Deut6:5 and love our neighbor Rom13:9 that Jesus said there are no greater commandments than these

-"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Galatians 3:13-14 NKJV

The curse is the wages of sin is death, that is the curse of the law Rom6:23 if we are submitting to Christ would we be worshipping another God? Using His holy name of God in vain? Bowing to idols? Breaking the holy day of the LORD and profaning God Eze22:26 there is no curse for keeping the law of God, only breaking it. Jesus will redeem us of this curse and tells us how by abiding in Him John15:4-10 not everyone does.

-"But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
II Corinthians 3:14-17 NKJV

Another verse taken out of context. Without Christ, people are spiritually “covered” and can’t fully grasp God’s truth.
But when they turn to Him, that covering is removed, and they gain understanding and freedom through the Spirit.

Did Christ teach us to break the law of God- He condemned those who did quoting directly from the Ten Commandments saying when we lay aside the commandment of God - we make the word of God of no effect, that our worship to Him becomes in vain, our hearts are far from Him because God placed His laws Heb8:10 2Cor3:3 in our hearts and minds to do them and when we harden our heart and won't subject ourselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8 the Spirit has no where to go but to leave. Why Jesus said this path is what leads to a ditch. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

 

[Musicmaster]

I've dealt with you MM.
You spewed more insults at me in the first month I was here than I heard in 10 years on these Forums in general.
Happily for me,,,I don't really get insulted.

In fact, I've stopped conversing with you.

YOU are not the person to complain that someone made some statement or other about you.

If you can't take the heat...
stay out of the kitchen.

And try to behave as Jesus would want you to instead.

There's a difference between ad hominem insults and calling things for what they are, along with tactics that are inferior. The latter are not insults, even though you may have taken them as such. They were not meant that way.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Trust in Him

 

[Roger316]

LOL
What you've stated is pretty serious stuff Roger.
There are some ON THIS VERY FORUM that walk after bad works.
Apparently, you're not aware of the attacks and insults Ive received .
THIS is doing bad works.

It doesn't take murder you know.

So YOUR premise is faulty.

Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS when he exhorts them to do good works and to now become hardened of heart.

You, like many do, change the very meaning of NT teachings to suit your own ideology.

I don't see your point because I didn't argue from a set of propositions. I simply asserted an idea without proof, inviting others to examine the evidence themselves.

If all you mean is that you disagree with my assertion, then I accept that. My beliefs don't require you to believe me.

Your charge against me, that I change the meaning of NT words, is inaccurate. Rather, in order to disabuse someone of a bad interpretation, I spend the time to share what the author meant by his words.

Regarding your observation about Paul's exhortation to do good works, we must be careful that we don't conclude more than what he intended. When Paul says, "we are created unto good works", what does he expect us to conclude from that?

Someone might say, "Paul wants us to do good works and therefore 'X' where 'X' is purported to be a valid inference from Paul's statement. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

If we think deeper about the salvation experience and the markers associated with salvation, one can rightfully conclude that good works are NOT necessarily an indicator of the inner man (as Paul calls it). Maybe they are; maybe they're not.

God judges the heart, and so good works are salvific, if and only if they are expressions of the proper inwardness. If a man is doing good works as the means to seek glory from other men, his works are not markers of the proper inwardness. They are good for their own sake, but they mean nothing with regard to salvation. But if a man's good works are the outward expressions of a righteous intent, then they are markers of a good heart. Romans 2:9-10

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I believe joining ourselves to the LORD and serving Him the way He asks not how we "feel" allows one to actually serve Him instead trying to do so on our own terms.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD
Isa 56:6 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—


God tells us everything we need to know. The problem I see is people want all of God's Blessings on their terms and not God's Isa56:2 they want to serve the LORD on their terms and not how He asks Isa56:6

If we are not serving the LORD we are by default serving another. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16KJV so I take the invite God made to everyone on how He wants us to serve Him, seriously and find spending quality time in communion with Him on the day He set aside to do so Gen2:1-3 Exo20:8-11 Heb 4:3-4 a blessing and delight Isa58:13-14.

We want to be a servant of the LORD- He personally told us how- will we hear Him? Heb3:7-19

Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

this is all great.

but you can work all day long every day for the rest of your life. and you will not do enough works worthy to earn eternal life.

Thats what the cross did..

 

[markss]

What I am referring to is somebody who is saved. They are saved. And then they decide to give God the finger and work against him that person apostates themselves and will not be in heaven God is not going to force anyone into heaven it would make him a liar when it came to giving us free will

When has that ever happened? I think it's a fiction. And the Bible is written as though that does not happen. And again, that passage tells us the true don't leave. That those who do were not true to begin with. So there is no place for the true to leave. They don't. Don't you suppose that agrees with their desire? Who that has known the love of God would ever walk away from it? We don't.

Even so . . . free will is not the ability to change your nature, and nowhere did God say He would ever unregenerate you, return you to a flesh being.

Much love!

 

[Mem]

The perfect Son of Man was slain having fulfilled the entirety of the law (and this seems somewhat inherently disruptive to me). He said of the OC Temple, not a stone will remain, and I will raise it up again... He fulfilled the OC law, but did He fulfill the OC Temple? Is He now the New Temple? Idk, but I do know that we are now the NC temples of God, and we are mobile. Do we now fulfill the purpose of the OC temple, or do we have a new purpose to fulfil the OC law?

The Israelites came to priest of the temple for the cleansing of their sins, not to be judged for them.

Idk what we're arguing, but it doesn't seem to me to be about the work that we're supposed to be doing.

 

[markss]

Idk what we're arguing, but it doesn't seem to me to be about the work that we're supposed to be doing.

All summed up in Trust and Love.

Much love!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

this is all great.

but you can work all day long every day for the rest of your life. and you will not do enough works worthy to earn eternal life.

Thats what the cross did..

The cross made it available for us to continue in sin and disobey God?

According to the Bible I read that if we are in Christ why would we want to live in sin any longer Rom6:1-4 that He came to save us from our sins Mat1:21 not in them Heb10:26-30

Keeping the Sabbath is resting in God, why He said to do no work. Exo20:8-10 Ironically what your are stating is doing exactly what you claim keeping the Sabbath does. When we are not resting in God's works Exo32:16 of righteousness and instead depending on our own righteousness (what is wrong what is right) and not God's Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2 which His is everlasting Psa119:142 than we are depending on our works and not God's which His is saving, ours not so much.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets

Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments

Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

Sadly you seem to be teaching to disobey God and we can live which is the same lie that deceived out first parents that separated them from God- continuing in that same path is not the path to reconciliation

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city

 

[TruthDefender]

TruthDestroyer, you still do not understand these verses. what law is Paul speaking of here? do you know? is the law a curse? or is it something else Paul means here in connection to the ""law"? what is the significance of the veil?

You obviously aren’t understanding. These verses are as clear as day, but you’re trying to twist it to your flawed theology, which isn’t working for you. You’re still trying to hang on to the OT Laws and traditions.
Just remember that Christ came near to you (His words).

 

[Mem]

Gold, silver, and precious stones vs. wood, hay, and stubble. Fine linen vs filthy rags. Grace vs. works. Nobody sets out to do any sort of filthy work while wearing fine linens. You can find gold packed in coal, silver and precious stones are found in volcanic and sedimentary rocks. You aren't mining for the hearts of men and are just mining for the sediment if your focus is 'creating' gold, silver, and precious stone.

 

[JayWalker]

Your second premise is fictional.

I see so you're claiming one can live in sin, living after the flesh - and they are still in right standing with the Lord?

Did you not know that grace does not cover us when we are living in sin?

Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Isn't it time to accept the whole counsel of God?

Well, to be totally honest,,,which I usually am...

So sometimes you lie?

 

[TruthDefender]

How is this vague? Do you not belive Christ is God? Can you please share that from Scripture.

Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath day and said it was MADE FOR mankind, the Sabbath day is the holy day of the LORD thus saith the LORD Exo20:10 Isa58:13 that started before Jew. before Israel, just man and God Exo20:11. Why God- thus saith the LORD invited everyone to keep the Sabbath and serve Him. Isa56:6

So perhaps its not me conflating these two things. These are all thus saith the LORDS so to me there is no one greater to give His Truth than God Himself who is Jesus.

You say not to continue in them Jesus said the opposite

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Least in heaven I do not believe means one will be there if we read the next few verses Mat5:20-30

So while you may say one thing, I am going to believe what Jesus said.


This is Paul speaking and he came with a serious warning about what people would do with his writings 2Peter3:16 Paul taught everything has to be according to Christ Col2:8 Jesus made it plain to keep His commandments if we love Him John14:15 don't break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19 Paul taught breaking them is sin Rom7:7 dishonoring God Rom2:21-23 being an enemy to God Rom8:7-8 and left outside God's Kingdom Gal5:20 just as Christ taught Mat7:21-23

So lets look at the context of the law Paul is referring to, the law of love the Testimony of God, the Ten Commandments? No he plainly says what was written in the book of the law, which is the handwritten ordinances that were contrary and against us Col2:14KJV written by Moses 2Chron33:8NKJV that was outside the ark of God's covenant Deut31:24-26 not the Ten Commandments that God wrote Exo31:18 that tell us how to love God with all our heart, mind and soul Deut6:5 and love our neighbor Rom13:9 that Jesus said there are no greater commandments than these

The curse is the wages of sin is death, that is the curse of the law Rom6:23 if we are submitting to Christ would we be worshipping another God? Using His holy name of God in vain? Bowing to idols? Breaking the holy day of the LORD and profaning God Eze22:26 there is no curse for keeping the law of God, only breaking it. Jesus will redeem us of this curse and tells us how by abiding in Him John15:4-10 not everyone does.

Another verse taken out of context. Without Christ, people are spiritually “covered” and can’t fully grasp God’s truth.
But when they turn to Him, that covering is removed, and they gain understanding and freedom through the Spirit.

Did Christ teach us to break the law of God- He condemned those who did quoting directly from the Ten Commandments saying when we lay aside the commandment of God - we make the word of God of no effect, that our worship to Him becomes in vain, our hearts are far from Him because God placed His laws Heb8:10 2Cor3:3 in our hearts and minds to do them and when we harden our heart and won't subject ourselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8 the Spirit has no where to go but to leave. Why Jesus said this path is what leads to a ditch. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

You still don’t understand that Jesus lived according to the Levitical laws TILL He died on the cross (so obviously, He honored the Levitical laws in the first 4 books, gospels).
He fulfilled the Law and Prophecy, nailing them to the cross, at death.

You seem to dismiss what Paul and others wrote, because you feel that Jesus didn’t say any of that. ALL Scripture came from God through the chosen men (ALL Scripture is inspired by God).

Yes, Jesus is God, and there is God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. All 3 are separate, but are in agreement as if they’re one.

 

[BillyBob]

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” (Gal 3:10). The first part of this verse means: All who count on being saved by their own performances, or rely upon their own obedience for acceptance by God, are under the curse of His law and exposed to His wrath. Justification by keeping the law is an utter impossibility for any fallen creature. Why so? Because God’s law requires flawless and perpetual conformity, sinless perfection in thought and word and deed, and because it makes no provision for failure to comply with its holy and righteous terms. It is not sufficient to hear about or know about the requirements of God’s law. They must be met. Thus it is obvious that a law which already condemns cannot justify, that any who hope to merit God’s favor by their faulty attempts to obey it are badly deceived. This statement (Gal 3:10) was made by the apostle to show that every man is under divine condemnation until he flees to Christ for refuge.

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us” (Gal 3:13). A way has been opened where guilty sinners may not only escape from the curse of the law, but actually be received into the favor of God. Amazing Grace! Matchless mercy! All who put their trust in Christ are delivered from the law’s sentence of doom so that they shall never fall under it.

** A W Pink **

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You still don’t understand that Jesus lived according to the Levitical laws TILL He died on the cross (so obviously, He honored the Levitical laws in the first 4 books, gospels).
He fulfilled the Law and Prophecy, nailing them to the cross, at death.

You seem to dismiss what Paul and others wrote, because you feel that Jesus didn’t say any of that. ALL Scripture came from God through the chosen men (ALL Scripture is inspired by God).

Yes, Jesus is God, and there is God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. All 3 are separate, but are in agreement as if they’re one.

The Sabbath is not a Levitical law- God said it is one of His commandments Exo20:6 it started at Creation Exo20:11, before Levi's before Jews, before Moses, before Israel- made for mankind Mark2:27-27 and everyone Isa56:6 thus saith the LORD.

Why the LORD said it continues after the Cross Mat24:20 as we see plainly Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 17:2 Acts 18:4 and for eternity thus saith the LORD Isa66:22-23

This is not an argument with me. This is God speaking directly.

 

[kinda]

I know it's not directly related to topic, but I think it's in the mix. So, adding this one.

Acts 13:48 NKJB
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Toknow]

Well you believe wrong.

OK Last try JayWalker because we basically agree and we're just speaking past each other.

You stated that FAITH is a work.
I said that FAITH is a noun,,,it's something that we GET and not something that we DO.

It's a gift that is given to those that come to believe.
We have faith in the one is whom we believe (Jesus).

Faith is ACTION and those walking in Bible faith are living (action) in agreement with the Lord and are not living after the flesh.

Faith as action is a verb....as you've stated we must WALK IN FAITH....
walking in faith can be considered to be a good work and this is on man's part.

Walking is an action...it is doing something...this is a good work/deed.

Yes, I have been saying that all along.

No.
You said that faith is a work.
I'm saying that faith is a gift.
Walking in faith is a work.
There's a difference.

Good works do not save us that is true.

Agreed.

But walking after bad works - living after the flesh - certainly causes one to be unsaved.

Agreed.

Those claiming this is not true are advocating for one to live in sinful behavior and still be saved which is false doctrine.

Agreed.

The Gospel comes down to the simple concept that those who are saved will live in agreement with the Lord (walking after the Spirit) instead of living in agreement with the devil (walking after the flesh)

Agreed.

If you know your bible to know that God warns that those living after the flesh are NOT in right standing with Him because they are rejecting Him in favor of living for the devil.

Agreed.

And those not walking in the instructions these passages from the Lord has given us will not be in attendance at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Yes sir.
We must obey God and walk in His instructions.
These are all good works.
We are made for good works.
Eph 2:10

You aren't claiming one can live in sin and still be saved are ya?

Kinda sounds like you are and you're trying to ride the fence at the same time.

No fence riding for me.

And yet is is because man has the ability and responsibility to choose to walk in faith.
Those choosing to not walk in faith are now doing evil works.

Those not walking in the faith cannot be saved because they are not obeying God.

And those not living in these (ACTION) won't be in attendance at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

Agreed.

You aren't claiming one can live in sin and still be saved are ya?

No sir.

These cannot be separated.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

So if a person receives the gift of faith the result of having received the gift brings forth the fruit of walking after the Spirit.

Yes!
The above is what I've been stating and agree with.
Faith is a gift....
then it's up to us to walk in that gift. This is the good work/deed.

If a person does not received the gift of faith or is a backslider, then they bring forth the fruit of walking after the flesh and are not saved.

Agreed.

 

[JayWalker]

All who count on being saved by their own performances, or rely upon their own obedience for acceptance by God, are under the curse of His law

Which is why we are to allow the Holy Spirit to do good works through us as we abide IN Christ submitting ourselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Sadly many today are advocating for sin, advocating for being able to walk after the flesh and still be saved and they have been tricked by the devil in to believing the Lord accepts lawlessness and He does not.

 

[Toknow]

So sometimes you lie?

LOL
Good catch!!

Could usually mean all the time?
Just like the world does not mean the world to calvinists??
LOL

 

[JayWalker]

Just like the world does not mean the world to calvinists??

calvinism comes from the devil