Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

I said "self-glorification," not "glorification." There is a difference.

I ALSO said self-glorification Roger.
See post no. 10,823


MY comment back to your comment as to self-glorification:

"Selling the land was self-glorification?"


I said he said is a waste of time and you do this frequently.
Please read my posts carefully if you wish to engage.

You are wrong, not because I am right, but because your view of obedience -- i.e. blind obedience -- lacks a moral center. Even if we don't immediately know why God asks us to do something, we do it anyway because he is both good and righteous. In other words, we know why we have chosen to obey.

You made a philosophical statement. It requires a philosophical answer.

Where is your scriptural support for that?

Absolutely, Jesus employs the nature of trees and fruit to say something about the nature of the human heart.

What does the fruit represent?

Let's see what the fruit represents:
YOU decide what it represents:


John 15:2
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
And this is what happens to the branches that are taken away:


John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


I agree that it would be a good idea to find out what BEARING FRUIT means to Jesus.

 

[Toknow]

Whether you realize it or not, your view requires another alternative. In your view, there is a house that was built on rock that didn't survive the storm.

Please post my quote stating that a house built on the teachings of JESUS will not survive.


Please explain what you THINK my view is and HOW it requires a 3rd option.


Here are the 2 options:


1. We ACT on the words of Jesus and are safe from the storm.



2. We DO NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and are not safe from the storm.


ACTING means DOING.
DOING what we HEAR Jesus teaching.


No 3rd option necessary.

No loopholes.

 

[Toknow]

Si no

You know legion....
your reply (Si no) is VERY interesting.

It could have two different meanings:

1. si to my first comment and no to my second comment.

OR

2. Si no as it is used in replying to someone in the Italian language.
This would necessitate knowing Italian at the cultural level.
Which is it??

 

[Toknow]

I said "self-glorification," not "glorification." There is a difference.


You are wrong, not because I am right, but because your view of obedience -- i.e. blind obedience -- lacks a moral center. Even if we don't immediately know why God asks us to do something, we do it anyway because he is both good and righteous. In other words, we know why we have chosen to obey.

You made a philosophical statement. It requires a philosophical answer.

Where is your scriptural support for that?

Missed this.

I've posted many verses that teach that we are to do good works.
NONE of them require stopping to analiyze why we are doing them.

It's up TO YOU to post some verses that state otherwise since you do not agree with what I've posted.

I believe you'll find this quite impossible.


Here are some good works verses from the Open bible.
There are plenty more.
Perhaps you could point out a few that teach us that we are to STOP and analyze WHY we are to do good works and make sure that w'e're doing them for the right reason.

The only reason is to obey God.

Matthew 5:16​

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10​

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

James 2:14-17​

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

​

James 2:26​

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:23-24​

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 13:16​

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

​

page 1 of 2

 

[Toknow]

@Roger316

2 of 2

Maybe take special notice of Matthew 25.
Jesus said TO DO as if doing TO Him.
No mention of examining our motives.

James 2:18​

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Galatians 6:9​

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

John 6:28-29​

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Titus 2:14​

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

James 4:17​

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 Timothy 6:17-19​

As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Romans 2:6-10​

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

1 Corinthians 16:14​

Let all that you do be done in love.

Hebrews 6:10​

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Titus 1:16​

They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Matthew 7:21-23​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

2 Timothy 3:17​

That the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Proverbs 3:27-28​

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.

Titus 3:8​

The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Hebrews 10:24​

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Titus 2:7​

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

John 14:15​

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 Corinthians 15:58​

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Ephesians 2:8​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Ephesians 2:8-10​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:1​

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Psalm 37:3​

Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness.

Matthew 25:31-46​

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...

 

[Toknow]

Not in faiths that place it as second fiddle when the reality is that it's the solo headliner.

The solo headliner in the Christian RELIGION
is Jesus the Christ
Who is
GOD

And is to be respected as such
believed as such
obeyed as such.


The gospel is about Jesus.
Not Jesus about the gospel.

 

[GWH]

At the end of the world....some will have died already.
Some will still be alive.
Those that are still alive will be caught up,,,which is what raptured means.

What did I omit??
You don't mention it.

Because Jesus would have to come back 2X.
Once to get the saved persons so as to avoid the tribulation...
and then again at the end of the world.

HOW does scripture show that Jesus is coming back 2X and not just once??

You're welcome for pointing out the trumpet in 1Thes. 4:16.

Your definition of rapture per the entirety of 1 Thes. 4:17 is correct:
At the end of the world those that are still alive will be caught up without dying.
1 Cor. 15:51 means the same thing.

This correct explanation has nothing to do with Darby or tribulation per Revelation,
which do indeed require Jesus to return twice. Harmonizing Rev with Thes by having
two returns makes no sense to me, I agree, so I choose Paul on that point.

 

[JanineJ07]

You're welcome for pointing out the trumpet in 1Thes. 4:16.

Your definition of rapture per the entirety of 1 Thes. 4:17 is correct:
At the end of the world those that are still alive will be caught up without dying.
1 Cor. 15:51 means the same thing.

This correct explanation has nothing to do with Darby or tribulation per Revelation,
which do indeed require Jesus to return twice. Harmonizing Rev with Thes by having
two returns makes no sense to me, I agree, so I choose Paul on that point.

Is it true that those who hear the trumpet will be saved and those that don't go to hell?

 

[Toknow]

You're welcome for pointing out the trumpet in 1Thes. 4:16.

Your definition of rapture per the entirety of 1 Thes. 4:17 is correct:
At the end of the world those that are still alive will be caught up without dying.
1 Cor. 15:51 means the same thing.

This correct explanation has nothing to do with Darby or tribulation per Revelation,
which do indeed require Jesus to return twice. Harmonizing Rev with Thes by having
two returns makes no sense to me, I agree, so I choose Paul on that point.

Just to clarify:
I tend to believe what the early church taught.
I don't tend to believe what doctrine came after.
For instance....OSAS is the result of the reformed/calvinist teaching of perseverance of the saints.
This was never taught in the early church but came about in the 5th century through the teachings of
Augustine of Hippo who was Catholic (the only denomination at the time), and was adopted by calvinism in
the 1500's.

I've never studied Revelation and know nothing about the trumpet.
I mentioned Darby to show that the rapture, as Christians being taken away as to avoid the tribulation,
is a new teaching so it's suspect to me.

As I read through the NT I just do not see Jesus coming back two times.
But, I don't care to debate this because it's not a salvation issue and what one believes doesn't seem,
to me at least, to be too important.

So, yes, one time is what I see...just to explain why I won't go into this too much,
but yes, we do need to learn what Paul teaches.

Good convo,,,

 

[GWH]

Is it true that those who hear the trumpet will be saved and those that don't go to hell?

Viewing the last Trumpet/Judgment as the eternal Gospel/GW, yes.

 

[Mem]

The solo headliner in the Christian RELIGION
is Jesus the Christ
Who is
GOD

And is to be respected as such
believed as such
obeyed as such.


The gospel is about Jesus.
Not Jesus about the gospel.

Jesus gets sole billing as Lord. There's no sitting on any throne without Him.

 

[GWH]

Just to clarify:
I tend to believe what the early church taught.
I don't tend to believe what doctrine came after.
For instance....OSAS is the result of the reformed/calvinist teaching of perseverance of the saints.
This was never taught in the early church but came about in the 5th century through the teachings of
Augustine of Hippo who was Catholic (the only denomination at the time), and was adopted by calvinism in
the 1500's.

I've never studied Revelation and know nothing about the trumpet.
I mentioned Darby to show that the rapture, as Christians being taken away as to avoid the tribulation,
is a new teaching so it's suspect to me.

As I read through the NT I just do not see Jesus coming back two times.
But, I don't care to debate this because it's not a salvation issue and what one believes doesn't seem,
to me at least, to be too important.

So, yes, one time is what I see...just to explain why I won't go into this too much,
but yes, we do need to learn what Paul teaches.

Good convo,,,

We should believe what GW teaches, whether taught early or later.
Re OSAS, I was taught early in life by Baptists to believe it, but when I read GW (Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23,
2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10) later at about
the age of twenty, I chose to believe in MFW rather than TULIP.

I never did a systematic study of Rev until I decided to do so on the thread I cited in connection with seeking to understand
the relationship between angels and the HS, whose functions seem to overlap/compete per the NT (cf. 1Tim. 2:5).
I agree that understanding Rev and angels is not necessary in order to be saved.

Glad we agree; agreement is good.

 

[Toknow]

Jesus gets sole billing as Lord. There's no sitting on any throne without Him.

"as Lord" could be a bit suspect.
But in any case,,,I don't care to get into Jesus is God or Jesus is Lord.

 

[Mem]

"as Lord" could be a bit suspect.
But in any case,,,I don't care to get into Jesus is God or Jesus is Lord.

You didn't let the opportunity of insinuation to slip by, of course. You'd have to know me as intimately as the Lord does, and you do not as much as you like to think you do.

 

[GWH]

"as Lord" could be a bit suspect.
But in any case,,,I don't care to get into Jesus is God or Jesus is Lord.

Regarding God, I find the following explanation to be the best:

The OT Shema (Deut. 6:4) teaches that the Lord/God is one, and the NT also affirms that there is one God (Eph. 4:6, 1Tim. 2:5).
However, the NT teaches that God relates to believers in three ways or as three persons simultaneously: as the Father,
as the Son and as the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1).

The Father/Parenthood of God is indicated in Jesus’ model prayer (Matt. 6:9), throughout the Gospel of John (John 3:35, 5:17-18, etc.), and in the epistles of Paul (Rom. 4:11, 8:15, Phil. 2:11). God the Father and Christ’s Sonship are discussed in Hebrews 1:1-4. The Son of God also is mentioned by John (John 1:14, 3:16, etc.) and by Paul (Rom. 1:4, Gal. 2:20, 1Thes. 1:10). The Holy Spirit is mentioned in three successive chapters in John (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13), frequently in the book of Acts (Acts 1:5, 2:4, 9:17, 13:2, 19:2), and in many of Paul’s letters (Rom. 8:4-26, 1Cor. 6:19, Eph. 4:30) as well as in some of the other epistles (2Pet. 1:21, Jude 20).

In order to understand the Trinity, it is helpful to discern which aspect or person of the triune God is the subject of various biblical statements. They may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (Gen. 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1Tim. 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (Rom. 5:5). For example, 1 John 4:7 says love comes from (is initiated by) God (the Father), Galatians 5:22 says that love is a fruit of the (indwelling) Spirit, and Ephesians 3:18 speaks of the (mediating) love of Christ (Rom. 5:8, Eph. 2:18).

We can denote these distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13). A single passage that comes closest to indicating this distinction is Eph. 3:14-19, in which Paul prays to the Father that through His Spirit of love Christ would dwell in believers’ hearts (also see 1Cor. 8:6). A single verse in which all three persons are mentioned and identified with grace, love and fellowship respectively is 2Cor. 13:14.

When the Bible uses masculine words for God, it should be understood that only God the Son is human and had a sexual orientation while on earth (Heb. 2:14-18). Gen 1:26-27 states that both male and female were created in God’s image, referring not to androgyny but to personality, and Jesus said (in Matt. 22:30 & 19:11-12) that there is no marriage and thus no need for sexuality in heaven.

 

[Toknow]

You didn't let the opportunity of insinuation to slip by, of course. You'd have to know me as intimately as the Lord does, and you do not as much as you like to think you do.

i only know what you post.
You project...as many on this forum like to do.

Jesus is not only Lord.
He is God.

Words DO insinuate.
So now it would be up to YOU to proclaim that Jesus is God.

(since the way you replied brought up the topic).

 

[Toknow]

Regarding God, I find the following explanation to be the best:

The OT Shema (Deut. 6:4) teaches that the Lord/God is one, and the NT also affirms that there is one God (Eph. 4:6, 1Tim. 2:5).
However, the NT teaches that God relates to believers in three ways or as three persons simultaneously: as the Father,
as the Son and as the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1).

The Father/Parenthood of God is indicated in Jesus’ model prayer (Matt. 6:9), throughout the Gospel of John (John 3:35, 5:17-18, etc.), and in the epistles of Paul (Rom. 4:11, 8:15, Phil. 2:11). God the Father and Christ’s Sonship are discussed in Hebrews 1:1-4. The Son of God also is mentioned by John (John 1:14, 3:16, etc.) and by Paul (Rom. 1:4, Gal. 2:20, 1Thes. 1:10). The Holy Spirit is mentioned in three successive chapters in John (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13), frequently in the book of Acts (Acts 1:5, 2:4, 9:17, 13:2, 19:2), and in many of Paul’s letters (Rom. 8:4-26, 1Cor. 6:19, Eph. 4:30) as well as in some of the other epistles (2Pet. 1:21, Jude 20).

In order to understand the Trinity, it is helpful to discern which aspect or person of the triune God is the subject of various biblical statements. They may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (Gen. 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1Tim. 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (Rom. 5:5). For example, 1 John 4:7 says love comes from (is initiated by) God (the Father), Galatians 5:22 says that love is a fruit of the (indwelling) Spirit, and Ephesians 3:18 speaks of the (mediating) love of Christ (Rom. 5:8, Eph. 2:18).

We can denote these distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13). A single passage that comes closest to indicating this distinction is Eph. 3:14-19, in which Paul prays to the Father that through His Spirit of love Christ would dwell in believers’ hearts (also see 1Cor. 8:6). A single verse in which all three persons are mentioned and identified with grace, love and fellowship respectively is 2Cor. 13:14.

When the Bible uses masculine words for God, it should be understood that only God the Son is human and had a sexual orientation while on earth (Heb. 2:14-18). Gen 1:26-27 states that both male and female were created in God’s image, referring not to androgyny but to personality, and Jesus said (in Matt. 22:30 & 19:11-12) that there is no marriage and thus no need for sexuality in heaven.

Thanks GWH
I think I know about the Trinity...
but all information is helpful.
I didn't really read all of the above for two reasons:

1. It would require examining each statement to make sure it's in line with orthodoxy.

2. I've decided not to debate the divinity/deity of Jesus anymore.
Christians should not be debating the deity of Christ.

If there IS a debate...it means one of them is not of the Christian religion because the Christian religion teaches that Jesus is God and thus the Trinity must be true.

Jesus' deity is at the core of the Christian religion.

 

[Toknow]

Regarding God, I find the following explanation to be the best:

The OT Shema (Deut. 6:4) teaches that the Lord/God is one, and the NT also affirms that there is one God (Eph. 4:6, 1Tim. 2:5).
However, the NT teaches that God relates to believers in three ways or as three persons simultaneously: as the Father,
as the Son and as the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1).

OK
I read it.
The above sounds slightly like modulism....
but it might just be the wording.

I think we can agree.
How's this:
The three are the same in nature....
but different in Person.

All 3 are God and have always existed...
but have different functions, as you've correctly posted.
But even though they have different function...they work in conjunction with each othe
which is why we can say that the Holy Spirit dwells in us....
and also Jesus dwells in us
Galatians 2:20

The Father/Parenthood of God is indicated in Jesus’ model prayer (Matt. 6:9), throughout the Gospel of John (John 3:35, 5:17-18, etc.), and in the epistles of Paul (Rom. 4:11, 8:15, Phil. 2:11). God the Father and Christ’s Sonship are discussed in Hebrews 1:1-4. The Son of God also is mentioned by John (John 1:14, 3:16, etc.) and by Paul (Rom. 1:4, Gal. 2:20, 1Thes. 1:10). The Holy Spirit is mentioned in three successive chapters in John (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13), frequently in the book of Acts (Acts 1:5, 2:4, 9:17, 13:2, 19:2), and in many of Paul’s letters (Rom. 8:4-26, 1Cor. 6:19, Eph. 4:30) as well as in some of the other epistles (2Pet. 1:21, Jude 20).

In order to understand the Trinity, it is helpful to discern which aspect or person of the triune God is the subject of various biblical statements. They may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (Gen. 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1Tim. 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (Rom. 5:5). For example, 1 John 4:7 says love comes from (is initiated by) God (the Father), Galatians 5:22 says that love is a fruit of the (indwelling) Spirit, and Ephesians 3:18 speaks of the (mediating) love of Christ (Rom. 5:8, Eph. 2:18).

We can denote these distinctions per Scripture by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13). A single passage that comes closest to indicating this distinction is Eph. 3:14-19, in which Paul prays to the Father that through His Spirit of love Christ would dwell in believers’ hearts (also see 1Cor. 8:6). A single verse in which all three persons are mentioned and identified with grace, love and fellowship respectively is 2Cor. 13:14.

When the Bible uses masculine words for God, it should be understood that only God the Son is human and had a sexual orientation while on earth (Heb. 2:14-18). Gen 1:26-27 states that both male and female were created in God’s image, referring not to androgyny but to personality, and Jesus said (in Matt. 22:30 & 19:11-12) that there is no marriage and thus no need for sexuality in heaven.

 

[Mem]

i only know what you post.
You project...as many on this forum like to do.

Jesus is not only Lord.
He is God.

Words DO insinuate.
So now it would be up to YOU to proclaim that Jesus is God.

(since the way you replied brought up the topic).

You knotted mind brought it up. I don't have to submit to any of your demands.

 

[Toknow]

You knotted mind brought it up. I don't have to submit to any of your demands.

I have no demands of you mem.
You're just some member on a forum...
why would I demand anything from you?


Here's post 10,931:

The solo headliner in the Christian RELIGION
is Jesus the Christ
Who is
GOD

And is to be respected as such
believed as such
obeyed as such.


The gospel is about Jesus.
Not Jesus about the gospel.

Jesus gets sole billing as Lord. There's no sitting on any throne without Him.



See:

I said JESUS IS GOD

YOU said JESUS IS Lord.


YOU changed what I stated.

Then the final statement from YOU is that MY mind is knotted??

You like to argue instead of discuss.

You're a waste to God and man.