Redemption: A Transaction Paid in Full

[FlyingDove]

My understanding places perseverance outside the elaboration of GRFS but immediately implied as follows:

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (Phil. 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (Matt. 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (Matt. 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied.

Perseverance produces didachaic fruit/faithfulness (Gal. 5:22) following (Eph. 2:8-10) and building on kerygmatic faith (1Cor. 3:10-15). In Eph. 2:10, “walk” can be translated as “walking with God”, which is an apt (KJV) way of indicating working grace that enables saved sinners (those who exercised seeking grace to choose saving grace) to cooperate with the HS by reflecting divine love variously (Rom. 5:5-8 & 12:6-8, Gal. 5:22-23, & 1Cor. 12:4-11). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will (Eph. 5:8-10) takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance, loyalty or remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.

Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2Tim. 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Several truths are taught in this pericope:

1. “Continue” indicates that perseverance is needed.
2. “Convinced” speaks of confident faith rather than of absolute certainty.
3. “Learning GW from infancy” refers to God’s “plan A” for parenting.
4. “Able” speaks of having volition or faith to seek–or not (Matt. 7:7, Rom. 3:11).
5. “Make wise for salvation” is the overarching purpose of GW.
6. “Through faith in Christ Jesus” states how salvation is attained.
7. “All Scripture is God-breathed and useful…” refers to the reason God inspired the OT and NT canons.
8. “Teaching” implies LGW as the main method of becoming mature or fully equipped, which means having humility = teachability.
9. “Rebuking/correcting” implies willingness to change previous beliefs.
10. “Training in righteousness” speaks of practicing godly/loving works following/continuing saving faith (Eph. 2:8-10).
11. “Servant of God” (the meaning of “Muslim”) is the one who obeys GW.
12. “Equipped” refers to having spiritual armor by which to defeat the devil’s unrighteous schemes (Eph. 6:10-18).

Your saying that believers cannot commit apostasy does indeed imply being forced to remain saved.
Believers are kept by God's power (1 Pet. 1:5) the same way they plugged into God's power: faith.
We can examine other Scriptures you cited also if you would like in order to harmonize them with those cited below.

The issue of apostasy has been debated ever since Augustine of Hippo developed his doctrine of predestination about A.D. 400. Romans 8:38-39 seems to say that it is impossible for a Christian to fail to persevere. Paul writes: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We also read in John 10:27-29 that Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice… no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (Also, see Rom. 8:38-39, Rom. 14:4&10, 1Cor. 1:8, 10:12 & 15:5, 2Cor. 1:20-24, Eph. 1:11-14, 1John 2:19, Psa. 135:6 & Pro. 21:1.)

However, there are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. Gal. 5:1 & Rev. 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (The reader should also see Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.)

The key point of our difference is Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.

The key point of our difference is Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.

You never addressed Jesus eternal life SEAL, the FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit. This seal declares God's ownership, certifies God's security & it guarantees the final outcome: Eternal Life!

Eph 1:13 you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise - Eph 4:30 you were sealed for the day of redemption - 2 Cor 1:22 God sealed us & gave the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

This is an immediate and everlasting promise (Lk 24:49, Jn 7:38-37 & 14:16) Luke's Acts 10:44 narrative make's that clear & Paul confirms in & Eph 1:13-14.

In the Sower parable Jesus Himself explains why some belief is temporary, superficial (also see 1 Jn 2:19) & not saving faith. THEY HAD NO ROOT! Christs Holy Spirit Baptism is the ROOT: true conversion, the new birth/born again, spiritual regeneration & you now have God/Christ-in-you (Col 1:27, 2:6-7 2 Cor 5:17) I reject the notion that anyone or anything can overthrow God/Christ' Holy Spirit indwelling.

Perseverance, continuing, remaining faithful, learning, training, obedience, cooperation, walking, equipping, rebuking, correcting, training in righteousness are the sanctification fruit of salvation, not the condition that keeps salvation intact. Anyone that thinks they can conquer sins grip without God's help is mistaken. It's the indwelling of the Holy Spirits that breaks the chains of sins dominion & enables the believer to obey, persevere, grow & produce good fruit. All within a secure relationship with God.

Jesus reinforces this repeatedly:

Jn 10:28 Jesus say's ""I give them eternal life"" ""& they shall never perish.""

Jn 5:24 Jesus say's ""has eternal life"" ""has passed from death to life"", ""shall not come into condemnation.""

Jn 6:47 Jesus say's ""he who believes""" """has eternal life"".

It is Christ who saves, who seals, who keeps & who finishes what He starts.

 

[GWH]

The key point of our difference is Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.

The key point of our difference is Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.

You never addressed Jesus eternal life SEAL, the FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit. This seal declares God's ownership, certifies God's security & it guarantees the final outcome: Eternal Life!

Eph 1:13 you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise - Eph 4:30 you were sealed for the day of redemption - 2 Cor 1:22 God sealed us & gave the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

This is an immediate and everlasting promise (Lk 24:49, Jn 7:38-37 & 14:16) Luke's Acts 10:44 narrative make's that clear & Paul confirms in & Eph 1:13-14.

In the Sower parable Jesus Himself explains why some belief is temporary, superficial (also see 1 Jn 2:19) & not saving faith. THEY HAD NO ROOT! Christs Holy Spirit Baptism is the ROOT: true conversion, the new birth/born again, spiritual regeneration & you now have God/Christ-in-you (Col 1:27, 2:6-7 2 Cor 5:17) I reject the notion that anyone or anything can overthrow God/Christ' Holy Spirit indwelling.

Perseverance, continuing, remaining faithful, learning, training, obedience, cooperation, walking, equipping, rebuking, correcting, training in righteousness are the sanctification fruit of salvation, not the condition that keeps salvation intact. Anyone that thinks they can conquer sins grip without God's help is mistaken. It's the indwelling of the Holy Spirits that breaks the chains of sins dominion & enables the believer to obey, persevere, grow & produce good fruit. All within a secure relationship with God.

Jesus reinforces this repeatedly:

Jn 10:28 Jesus say's ""I give them eternal life"" ""& they shall never perish.""

Jn 5:24 Jesus say's ""has eternal life"" ""has passed from death to life"", ""shall not come into condemnation.""

Jn 6:47 Jesus say's ""he who believes""" """has eternal life"".

It is Christ who saves, who seals, who keeps & who finishes what He starts.

I understand you think the key point of our difference is Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.
You believe being sealed (Eph. 1:13) means not being free to commit apostasy, the doctrine known as OSAS.

I addressed this when I said that being raised as a Baptist I believed OSAS/the P in TULIP until I read Rom. 11:22,
1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Thus, the need is to harmonize GW, not to divorce the fruit of salvation from the condition of salvation. Perseverance does indeed mean remaining faithful or continuing to have the same saving faith at the end that you had at the beginning of sanctification.
There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.

What Jesus said in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28 assumes the person will persevere in John 3:16. Notice the present tense "believes" in the first two verses. Regarding John 10:27-29, being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in John 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in John 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

Regarding other verses commonly cited by those wanting to defend the doctrine of OSAS, this is how they can be harmonized with passages teaching the possibility of apostasy:

Rom. 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

Rom. 14:4&10 - Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58 - Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

2Cor 1:20-24 - Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

Eph. 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2Pet. 1:10f).

1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as Deut. 30:19 & Matt. 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

Pro. 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Thus, our key difference is your double-think/divorcing GW and my desire to harmonize GW.

Over...

 

[FlyingDove]

I understand you think the key point of our difference is Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism.
You believe being sealed (Eph. 1:13) means not being free to commit apostasy, the doctrine known as OSAS.

I addressed this when I said that being raised as a Baptist I believed OSAS/the P in TULIP until I read Rom. 11:22,
1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Thus, the need is to harmonize GW, not to divorce the fruit of salvation from the condition of salvation. Perseverance does indeed mean remaining faithful or continuing to have the same saving faith at the end that you had at the beginning of sanctification.
There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.

What Jesus said in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28 assumes the person will persevere in John 3:16. Notice the present tense "believes" in the first two verses. Regarding John 10:27-29, being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in John 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in John 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

Regarding other verses commonly cited by those wanting to defend the doctrine of OSAS, this is how they can be harmonized with passages teaching the possibility of apostasy:

Rom. 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

Rom. 14:4&10 - Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58 - Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

2Cor 1:20-24 - Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

Eph. 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2Pet. 1:10f).

1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as Deut. 30:19 & Matt. 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

Pro. 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Thus, our key difference is your double-think/divorcing GW and my desire to harmonize GW.

Over...

Your reply treats SEALED as reversible, which is the opposite of Paul's usage, collapses justification & sanctification into 1 category, redefines BELIEVES (present tense) as ""believes & keeps believing"", which Jesus never says & your ""jump out of the Father's hand"" argument (as if He can't hold on), overrides the very definition of seal & contradicts Jesus' repeated statements.

All of this circles back to salvations ROOTS: By Grace are you saved thru Faith! NOT by Grace are you saved thru perseverance, obedience, abiding, cooperation, walking, equipping, rebuking, correcting, training in righteousness or anything else you can stack on top.

A seal that can be undone by the one sealed IS NOT a biblical seal; it's a conditional sticker. You're treating the fruit of salvation as the condition of salvation, which reverses Paul's entire presentation.

Once the Lord accepts (only He can) the sinners appeal for forgiveness based on faith alone & baptizes SEALING them with the FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit (only He can) God the Holy Spirit-in-them cannot be overthrown.

 

[Mem]

I can't even fathom the logical leap one has to make to go from believing Jesus' blood atones for their sins once for all to not believing that Jesus' blood not atoning for their sins once for all.

 

[Lamar]

I can't even fathom the logical leap one has to make to go from believing Jesus' blood atones for their sins once for all to not believing that Jesus' blood not atoning for their sins once for all.

I can't even fathom the arrogance needed to believe that God is in some way bound by their personal understanding of the attributes of redemption.

God is not bound to extend His forgiveness for the life of the forgiven regardless of their actions.

God is sovereign and as such is not bound to whatever your personal interpretation of redemption might be.

Matthew 18: 21-35

The Master did not simply warn or punish the forgiven debtor, He revoked his forgiveness.

Deal with it and stop giving false hope to the unrepentant.

 

[Mem]

I can't even fathom the arrogance needed to believe that God is in some way bound by their personal understanding of the attributes of redemption.

God is not bound to extend His forgiveness for the life of the forgiven regardless of their actions.

God is sovereign and as such is not bound to whatever your personal interpretation of redemption might be.

Matthew 18: 21-35

The Master did not simply warn or punish the forgiven debtor, He revoked his forgiveness.

The debtor never fully appreciated his own forgiveness if it didn't translate to his treatment of others. He was simply taking all advantage for himself.

 

[biblestudent78]

My belief is that any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will reach the same conclusion as I have: The NT is the most credible canon or collection of writings purporting to be a communique from God. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as Heb. 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and Rom. 1:3-4).

Christianity qualified OT theism, which emphasized God’s love for some people (descendants of Abraham), with a UMI to love everyone by reflecting His love, beginning with God and continuing with one-self and one’s neighbors (whether Jew or Gentile) and even including one’s enemies (per Matt. 22:37-39 & 5:44). The best reason to hope in God is Christ. Paul calls those who have saving faith/cooperate with God’s will the spiritual or righteous children of Abraham (Rom. 3:28-30 & 4:9-16).

I also think that God tweaked the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction/produce the revelation He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of salvation. The revelation we have in the Bible is sufficient for learning how to be saved. A Christian who disagrees may be:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9),

d. a back-slider or prodigal Christian, who has yet to learn by painful experience the value of learning to cooperate with God’s will.

e. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

f. an apostate (Heb. 6:4-6, 10:23-39), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20), becoming completely corrupt and callous (Matt. 13:14-15, Heb. 6:4-6).

Corporate salvation is merely the set of all individual salvation: those in the church or body of Christ.
TSer means truthseeker. So now that you understand that abbreviation, I ask:
Are you also a harmonizer/TSer who believes the NT part of GW is to accept Jesus as Messiah?

I do not attempt to harmonize. I let each writer say clearly what they are communicating without to abridge or homogenize what I read so that it "fits." The New Testament refers to Jesus of Nazareth over 50 times but I allow Matthew and Luke to claim Jesus is of Bethlehem without the need to change what they say. I don't try to harmonize the date of Jesus crucifixion. I accept the witness of Matthew, Mark and Luke that it was Friday and I accept John's description of Jesus crucifixion on Thursday. I accept the fact that Jesus according to Luke told his disciples to stay in Jerusalem and await his resurrection which they did. I also accept accounts of the other Gospel writers that say Jesus instructed his disciples to meet him in Galilee which they did. What I am attempting to communicate is that I accept each and every book of the New Testament on its own terms and attempt to understand who was writing, who was the intended audience and why the messages were crafted as they were. I do not attempt to strain out scripture that does not fit my current understanding of reality.

I agree that there is ample and sufficient witness that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God and the vehicle of our salvation. I also believe that God through Jesus called for true conversion of life, attitude, priorities, finance, ethics, honesty, morality and sacrificial love as the mission of all Christians. Worship is natural, but total commitment is easily avoided via our Harmonizing, Homogenizing and scape goating ourselves into Jesus as only a Savior but never actual Lord. We claim that crown.

 

[Lamar]

The debtor never fully appreciated his own forgiveness if it didn't translate to his treatment of others. He was simply taking all advantage for himself.

Again your arrogance is showing.

Regardless of your personal understanding of why the forgiveness was revoked, the forgiveness was revoked.

He was in a state of forgiveness and then he was not.

The Master is sovereign, He is not bound to anyone's understanding of His forgiveness.

Deal with it and stop giving the unrepentant a false hope.

 

[Mem]

Again your arrogance is showing.

Regardless of your personal understanding of why the forgiveness was revoked, the forgiveness was revoked.

He was in a state of forgiveness and then he was not.

The Master is sovereign, He is not bound to anyone's understanding of His forgiveness.

Deal with it and stop giving the unrepentant a false hope.

what the farce are you talking about me giving the unrepentant a false hope. Show me one.

 

[Lamar]

what the farce are you talking about me giving the unrepentant a false hope. Show me one.

Pushers of OSAS are by nature giving those who believe they were once redeemed then they are always redeemed.

Repentance is not needed for redemption because redemption cannot be lost. This is the false hope.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"what the farce"

Is this your take away from my comment? You seem more concerned about a possible slight then a misunderstanding of the parable.

Again, simple arrogance.

 

[Mem]

Pushers of OSAS are by nature giving those who believe they were once redeemed then they are always redeemed.

Repentance is not needed for redemption because redemption cannot be lost. This is the false hope.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"what the farce"

Is this your take away from my comment? You seem more concerned about a possible slight then a misunderstanding of the parable.

Again, simple arrogance.

I was going to include this in another thread, but I saved it for you.

Backing up to the previous verse, Gal 2:17, Paul asserts the absurdity of regarding Christ as a minister of sin if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners.

One of the sinless perfection camps just now made the suggestion that I am a minister of sin because I stand in the assertion that the debtor never appreciated his forgiveness (which the poster equates to sin atonement) or otherwise that forgiveness would've have translated into his forgiveness of one indebted to him, and the debtor was merely only taking advantage where ever I found an opportunity, as in the case where his works are evidence of his faithlessness. IOW, he failed in showing any reverence of the grace which had been extended to him and received it as, what, a perk? Idk, something else.

 

[GWH]

Your reply treats SEALED as reversible, which is the opposite of Paul's usage, collapses justification & sanctification into 1 category, redefines BELIEVES (present tense) as ""believes & keeps believing"", which Jesus never says & your ""jump out of the Father's hand"" argument (as if He can't hold on), overrides the very definition of seal & contradicts Jesus' repeated statements.

All of this circles back to salvations ROOTS: By Grace are you saved thru Faith! NOT by Grace are you saved thru perseverance, obedience, abiding, cooperation, walking, equipping, rebuking, correcting, training in righteousness or anything else you can stack on top.

A seal that can be undone by the one sealed IS NOT a biblical seal; it's a conditional sticker. You're treating the fruit of salvation as the condition of salvation, which reverses Paul's entire presentation.

Once the Lord accepts (only He can) the sinners appeal for forgiveness based on faith alone & baptizes SEALING them with the FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit (only He can) God the Holy Spirit-in-them cannot be overthrown.

No, my reply allows Paul to define what is meant by being sealed, which is NOT that it forces believers to persevere per the Scripture I cited that you choose to ignore.

Yes, justification & sanctification are one category, which is salvation via faith. Discussions with TULIPists on CC prompted me to have that insight.

Re "Jesus never says believes & keeps believing": Yes he does, but you keep on ignoring him.

Re the ""jump out of the Father's hand"" argument: it harmonizes all of the NT statements, whereas you keep them divorced as though double-thinking is the correct hermeneutic.

Re By Grace are you saved thru Faith! NOT by Grace are you saved thru perseverance": There you go again, divorcing faith at the beginning of sanctification from life-long faith, as I used to do, too.

Re "A seal that can be undone by the one sealed IS NOT a biblical seal; it's a conditional sticker. You're treating the fruit of salvation as the condition of salvation, which reverses Paul's entire presentation": My point is that you ignore half of Paul's explanation, and how does your view avoid the charge of forced faith?

Re "Once the Lord accepts (only He can) the sinners appeal for forgiveness based on faith alone & baptizes SEALING them with the FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit (only He can) God the Holy Spirit-in-them cannot be overthrown.": Not per what you ignore, which is the possibility of blasphemy against the HS.

 

[Lamar]

I was going to include this in another thread, but I saved it for you.

Backing up to the previous verse, Gal 2:17, Paul asserts the absurdity of regarding Christ as a minister of sin if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners.

One of the sinless perfection camps just now made the suggestion that I am a minister of sin because I stand in the assertion that the debtor never appreciated his forgiveness (which the poster equates to sin atonement) or otherwise that forgiveness would've have translated into his forgiveness of one indebted to him, and the debtor was merely only taking advantage where ever I found an opportunity, as in the case where his works are evidence of his faithlessness. IOW, he failed in showing any reverence of the grace which had been extended to him and received it as, what, a perk? Idk, something else.

None of this changes the fact that the servant was truly forgiven.

Why his forgiveness was revoked is not germane to the fact that his forgiveness was truly taken away.

The Master did not put conditions on the servant's forgiveness, the Master simply forgave him. But the Master is sovereign and took away the servants redemption and no amount of OSAS nonsense can change this.

Again, deal with this fact and stop offering false hope to the unrepentant.

 

[markss]

If God were going to seal people/force them to persevere,

Isn't "continuing in the faith" what you want?

What Christian does not desire to continue in the faith? I've not met one myself.

Much love!

 

[markss]

Your reply treats SEALED as reversible, which is the opposite of Paul's usage, collapses justification & sanctification into 1 category, redefines BELIEVES (present tense) as ""believes & keeps believing"", which Jesus never says & your ""jump out of the Father's hand"" argument (as if He can't hold on), overrides the very definition of seal & contradicts Jesus' repeated statements.

All of this circles back to salvations ROOTS: By Grace are you saved thru Faith! NOT by Grace are you saved thru perseverance, obedience, abiding, cooperation, walking, equipping, rebuking, correcting, training in righteousness or anything else you can stack on top.

A seal that can be undone by the one sealed IS NOT a biblical seal; it's a conditional sticker. You're treating the fruit of salvation as the condition of salvation, which reverses Paul's entire presentation.

Once the Lord accepts (only He can) the sinners appeal for forgiveness based on faith alone & baptizes SEALING them with the FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit (only He can) God the Holy Spirit-in-them cannot be overthrown.

Personally I don't think any of us are more powerful than God, to undo His seal.

Much love!

 

[markss]

None of this changes the fact that the servant was truly forgiven.

Why his forgiveness was revoked is not germane to the fact that his forgiveness was truly taken away.

The Master did not put conditions on the servant's forgiveness, the Master simply forgave him. But the Master is sovereign and took away the servants redemption and no amount of OSAS nonsense can change this.

Again, deal with this fact and stop offering false hope to the unrepentant.

This fits with the times they were in, living under the Law, just like Ezekiel 18 describes. The righteous who becomes wicked, their righteousness is forgotten.

We are of course in a different covenant with God.

The previous was, do the law and live. The present is, believe in Jesus and live.

Much love!

 

[Lamar]

This fits with the times they were in, living under the Law, just like Ezekiel 18 describes. The righteous who becomes wicked, their righteousness is forgotten.

We are of course in a different covenant with God.

The previous was, do the law and live. The present is, believe in Jesus and live.

Much love!

This parable is given to us by the Master of the New Covenant.

OSAS pushes that once redemption is given then God is bound to not take it away, regardless of the actions of the redeemed.

This is nonsense and giving a false hope to the unrepentant.

 

[Lamar]

Personally I don't think any of us are more powerful than God, to undo His seal.

Much love!

It is not us who undoes the seal, it is Him who unseals.

I suspect you knew this already.

 

[Lamar]

Isn't "continuing in the faith" what you want?

What Christian does not desire to continue in the faith? I've not met one myself.

Much love!

Have you truly never met a Christian who has fallen away?

 

[GWH]

Isn't "continuing in the faith" what you want?

What Christian does not desire to continue in the faith? I've not met one myself.

Much love!

Faith can be placed in either God/GW or in Satan.
The choice is possible because of MFW (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37, John 3:16, Heb. 10:23-39).
I personally have known only a handful of Christians who repudiated their saving faith.
Continuing in faith is what I want, but not being reprogrammed as a robot.
Ditto love--which robots cannot do, although demons can fake it!