Loss of salvation???

[markss]

Your interpretation erases the very distinctions the inspired author maintains & your ""disobedience–unbelief / obedience–belief"" hyphenation simply restates the category collapse you deny. Hebrews uses the terms in parallel, not as a single unified concept. Parallelism is not fusion.

To me this is a very simple thing. True faith leads to obedience. That does not make faith and obedience the same thing.

Much love!

 

[studier]

If the emphasis that Jesus is Lord God discounts the Identity that He took upon Himself as Friend/Brother, you've missed out on the relationship entirely. John did not insult Him in claiming himself as the one that Jesus loved, being confident in that enough to lean on his bosom even. Was John the most well behaved? It very well seems so, but that he also seems to be the most aware of Jesus' love very possibly had some correlation to that.

Seriously, you and others need to use Scripture. I know you know how and that you tend to ponder it.

Friendship with God has definition and not many in the Text are referred to as His friends. Guess what He specifies as a determiner of being His friends in a conditional statement that does not assure His servants that they will do it?

NKJ John 15:14-15 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Wouldn't you agree that friendship with the Master Jesus Christ is dependent upon obeying the Lord Jesus Christ in whatever He commands?

If you chase the concept of a friend of God back into the OC, you'll find other words and terms being related to it just as Jesus qualifies it here.

 

[JayWalker]

The text distinguishes faith from obedience

And of course faith without obedience is not saving faith as the Lord says through Brutha James that "faith without works is dead" in James 2:26

Jesus said it like this here:

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[studier]

This is exactly the kind of thing I was running into that led me to disengage. The points themselves were different, but the process was exactly like you've described here.

You have a good way with words btw.

Much love!

That's because you too were trying to push the language into what it does not mean. As I recall now it was your attempting to make the perfect tense eternal, which it in itself is not.

 

[studier]

To me this is a very simple thing. True faith leads to obedience. That does not make faith and obedience the same thing.

Much love!

That's what the extended into error "Faith-Alone" soteriology needs it to be.

No surprise here.

 

[Mem]

Seriously, you and others need to use Scripture. I know you know how and that you tend to ponder it.

Friendship with God has definition and not many in the Text are referred to as His friends. Guess what He specifies as a determiner of being His friends in a conditional statement that does not assure His servants that they will do it?

NKJ John 15:14-15 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Wouldn't you agree that friendship with the Master Jesus Christ is dependent upon obeying the Lord Jesus Christ in whatever He commands?

If you chase the concept of a friend of God back into the OC, you'll find other words and terms being related to it just as Jesus qualifies it here.

I familiar with your approach to scripture that you've offered in detail, only with your mastery of the vocabulary of terms, something about present something or other does not necessarily guarantee future. But that can't be saying that just because it says that Jesus is Lord, it doesn't necessarily mean that He will be.
What makes you a better friend to Jesus anyway? What does Jesus command you to do that nobody else is doing here?

 

[JayWalker]

That's what the extended into error "Faith-Alone" soteriology needs it to be.

Yeah we gotta steer clear of those faith alone people.

They might bust out in to sin at any moment since they think their actions have nothing to do with salvation which leads many of them in to living in sinful behavior.

One of their heroes is Martin Luther who was a drunk, so the apple doesn't fall far from the tree as the saying goes.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah we gotta steer clear of those faith alone people.

They might bust out in to sin at any moment since they think their actions have nothing to do with salvation which leads many of them in to living in sinful behavior.

One of their heroes is Martin Luther who was a drunk, so the apple doesn't fall far from the tree as the saying goes.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his deeds:

New moniker, same false accusations.

 

[Mem]

Yeah we gotta steer clear of those faith alone people.

They might bust out in to sin at any moment since they think their actions have nothing to do with salvation which leads many of them in to living in sinful behavior.

One of their heroes is Martin Luther who was a drunk, so the apple doesn't fall far from the tree as the saying goes.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his deeds:

Golly, do you mean a wild drunken orgy could break out any minute?

 

[JayWalker]

Golly, do you mean a wild drunken orgy could break out any minute?

Yeah, those that believe they can live in sin and still be saved might just bust out in to a wild drunken orgy at any moment.

You never know what these people will do since they have themselves wide open to the devil

 

[studier]

Thanks & yes, Romans refutes the idea that faith & obedience are the same thing & we've been through that before. The pattern is always the same: grammars, lexicons & dictionaries are quoted, but then overridden by a theological conclusion none of those sources actually state. The same thing is happening here in Luke 17. The text distinguishes faith from obedience. The narrative structure distinguishes them & the apostles themselves distinguish them. When someone insists that only they see the ""true data,"" even when the inspired text & the very sources they cite don't support their conclusion, the result is predictable: the categories collapse & the doctrine gets imported back into the passage. That's why the same argument keeps producing the same result.

cc: @markss

NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

• Once we pay attention to how Greek constructions function, the point becomes clear.
• You’ve now acknowledged both the epexegetical category and the parallelism in Heb3 - exactly what the standard grammars and the sources I cited have been saying.
• An epexegetical construction explains or gives the content of the noun it follows.
• In Rom 10:16, Paul uses 'gar' ('For') to do the same explanatory work - it gives explanation and content to the parallel phrase “not obeying the gospel.”
• Paul explains “not obeying the Gospel” by specifying it as “not believing the report.”
• That is faith‑obedience - belief functioning as the explanation of obedience.
• If Paul intended a cause‑effect sequence (believing > obeying), he would have used different wording.

 

[Mem]

Yeah, those that believe they can live in sin and still be saved might just bust out in to a wild drunken orgy at any moment.

You never know what these people will do since they have themselves wide open to the devil

Idk but, although it isn't really that much softer, the encouraging side of you a so much more endearing.

 

[Toknow]

It is not possible because you have "self" in the way, just like @Toknow.

Until you choose to lay that down, there is no amount of verses or exegeting which will make a difference against that wall.

But rest assured you and @Toknow and all others who preach against the Good News, but rather supplant it with "self" disguised as faith and obedience,

cannot walk in the Law of Liberty,
cannot walk in Godly Joy,
cannot walk in Freedom

which is received via the completed work of Christ Jesus.

Instead you have chosen the Path of Burden, which feeds upon "self."
Ironic, don't ya think.

Never scripture.

Know why?

Because you don't have any to back up your incorrect ideas.

You listen to some guy that is teaching against what jesus taught
and you THINK you're saved because of what HE taught you instead of paying attention to what
Jesus taught...and Paul...and the other writers.

YOU posted the following a few posts ago.
You don't even know the meaning of the veres you quote...
This is the problem.
You don't understand scripture so you lsiten to some that teach heresy because it sounds
good to you.


What sounds good is not always what is right.



YOUR verse:

Hebrews 6:1
1We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

If you notice it states DEEDS THAT BRING DEATH....
You understand it to mean good deeds.....which is why you posted it.
Good deeds do not bring death.
Learn to use scripture.


And, maybe, you should keep reading to get the full effect of the teachings of the New Testament...
which you apparently are unaware of:


2And we shouldn't need to keep teaching about baptisms+ or about the laying on of hands+ or about people being raised from death and the future judgment. 3Let's grow up, if God is willing.

4-6But what about people who turn away after they have already seen the light and have received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit? What about those who turn away after they have received the good message of God and the powers of the future world? There is no way to bring them back. What they are doing is the same as nailing the Son of God to a cross and insulting him in public!



There goes you're OSAS heresy which is nowhere to be found in the NT.


I used the CEV which will be easier for you to understand since the other versions seem to be giving you some difficulty.

 

[HeIsHere]

Never scripture.

Know why?

Because you don't have any to back up your incorrect ideas.

You listen to some guy that is teaching against what jesus taught
and you THINK you're saved because of what HE taught you instead of paying attention to what
Jesus taught...and Paul...and the other writers.

YOU posted the following a few posts ago.
You don't even know the meaning of the veres you quote...
This is the problem.
You don't understand scripture so you lsiten to some that teach heresy because it sounds
good to you.


What sounds good is not always what is right.



YOUR verse:

Hebrews 6:1
1We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

If you notice it states DEEDS THAT BRING DEATH....
You understand it to mean good deeds.....which is why you posted it.
Good deeds do not bring death.
Learn to use scripture.


And, maybe, you should keep reading to get the full effect of the teachings of the New Testament...
which you apparently are unaware of:


2And we shouldn't need to keep teaching about baptisms+ or about the laying on of hands+ or about people being raised from death and the future judgment. 3Let's grow up, if God is willing.

4-6But what about people who turn away after they have already seen the light and have received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit? What about those who turn away after they have received the good message of God and the powers of the future world? There is no way to bring them back. What they are doing is the same as nailing the Son of God to a cross and insulting him in public!



There goes you're OSAS heresy which is nowhere to be found in the NT.


I used the CEV which will be easier for you to understand since the other versions seem to be giving you some difficulty.

Here >>
The Bible

You deny its central main message of justification (status) by faith in the completed works of Christ Jesus.

 

[studier]

I familiar with your approach to scripture that you've offered in detail, only with your mastery of the vocabulary of terms, something about present something or other does not necessarily guarantee future. But that can't be saying that just because it says that Jesus is Lord, it doesn't necessarily mean that He will be.
What makes you a better friend to Jesus anyway? What does Jesus command you to do that nobody else is doing here?

Of course Jesus is Lord and there's plenty of Scripture to say He will continue to be the Lord Jesus Christ. I very simply showed how He determined who His friends were and stated that this is inline with OC Scripture which speaks similarly. I've never said I'm His friend. I'd like to be, but He makes such determinations, not us. All I'm doing is allowing Him to tell us what He says and how He defines things and telling others when I think they're changing what He says.

 

[JayWalker]

Idk but, although it isn't really that much softer, the encouraging side of you a so much more endearing.

I'm advocating for people for people to not just believe what the Lord says, but to actually walk in agreement with Him.

And of course this is a problem for those wanting to walk after the flesh enjoying the pleasures of the flesh

It's not surprising when you hear about the polls they take among "christian" men where a large percentage admit that they watch porn on the internet on a regular basis

Jesus talked about people like this:

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

 

[Toknow]

Here >>
The Bible

You deny its central main message of justification (status) by faith in the completed works of Christ Jesus.

Jesus completed HIS work
but you are not willing to complete YOURS.

And, since it's impossible to have a real conversation here....
I'll be bidding you the good fortune of getting to know our Lord Jesus the Christ
and finding out what the Christ would like from you.

As of right now...
you have no idea.

God bless you with the knowledge of Him.

 

[GWH]

Little children be not deceived, he that does righteousness is righteous even as He was righteous.

Even as is a direct comparison.

So how was Jesus righteous?

By being righteous through God.

As Jesus said in John 14:10. " He doeth the work"

Which Christ confirms in Paul in Phil 2:12 and 13 " Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works in you both to will and do His good pleasure"

The righteousness of believers is of two types: positional/reckoned/deemed/counted as,
And actual/cooperative/reflective of divine love.

 

[mailmandan]

Your post is for contention and praise. Why is that?

I tagged HeIsHere in my post and not you but you felt obligated to respond anyway. Why is that?

Contention and praise? Really? Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Mem]

Of course Jesus is Lord and there's plenty of Scripture to say He will continue to be the Lord Jesus Christ. I very simply showed how He determined who His friends were and stated that this is inline with OC Scripture which speaks similarly. I've never said I'm His friend. I'd like to be, but He makes such determinations, not us. All I'm doing is allowing Him to tell us what He says and how He defines things and telling others when I think they're changing what He says.

I mean, what can you give to a friend that has everything. Thanks, from the heart, for being a better friend to you than you were to Him, is all I can think of. And it'd be interesting to see if there is something statistically significant about our praise (which amounts to just about the most esteemed opinion of another) being something that He 'inhabits.'