Exactly!
Conflating faith and obedience which results from faith culminates in works righteousness.Loss of salvation???
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Conflating faith and obedience which results from faith culminates in works righteousness.
Your reference to Matt 15:8 brings to mind the publican, that praised the Lord that he was not like the tax collector, as a good case in point.
Psalm 22:3 says that God inhabits the praises of Israel. That is, He's enthroned on their praises.
No…
I see you can’t help yourself. The Bible speaks of incontinence. First you say something derogatory about all those who don’t hold to “your” beliefs by using a Bible verse inappropriately. And then you take a swipe at me. I hope you are not doing it on purpose. And If You can’t see that all that does is cause strife then your issues are much bigger than discussing any theological issue.
The question centers on how to seek God to gain his approval. Paul's opponents would argue that God approves of those who obey his law. Paul argues that God approves of those who believe God's word and act on what God said or commanded. He also asserts that without faith, it is impossible to please God. Therefore, we conclude that faith is uniquely necessary for attaining God's approval.
Obedience alone means nothing in that regard. As Paul argues in Romans 4, Abraham received circumcision as a sign of the faith he already had. Unless obedience serves as a sign of faith, it has no value to those seeking God's approval.
Why are you questioning what to give Him when He's just told us what He wants from us?
Do what He says. Do what you agreed to do when you chose to believe who He is - He's God - do what He says. This is what biblical faith is.
The entire NC is Him having paved the way to bring us into an eternal relationship with Himself in which He provides His grace and His Spirit to raise His Children in His likeness who are faithful and loyal to Him as He defines and establishes and will be for eternity.
Do you see any reason you would desert Him?
When you wake up tomorrow, assuming you do, will you still hold fast the hupostasis and desire to please Him?
Do you think that you are every person?
Let Him says what He says.
The command is to believe. That does not redefine believe as obey. This is typical for you. Just a little sleight of hand, but that is not the Way.
Just be advised I don't intend to address your posts, I'm interested in honest and open and respectful discussion.
Much love!
If we focus on obedience, we will miss the point: without faith, it is impossible to gain God's approval.
Paul's opponents would argue that obedience is evidence of God's approval. Paul argues to the contrary that faith is evidence of God's approval. Abraham believed what God said, and it was credited to him as justifiedness. * Abraham's obedience was evidence of his faith, which is what God responded to.
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* Justifiedness = the state of being justified, i.e. having God's approval.
It's just poor interpretation, and I think in this case results from putting the conclusion first.Exactly!
How someone can get around Romans 4 is beyond me.
Romans 4:1-8 KJV
1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Believing and obeying are each their own action, and not the same action. This passages puts faith and works (acts of obedience) in stark contrast, and actually disqualifies the one who thinks their acts of obedience justify them. In no uncertain terms faith and works (acts of obedience) are separated placed in opposition. No way around that.
Much love!
'Conflating’ is just the latest pejorative in the faith‑alone, works‑phobic vocabulary.Exactly!
It's a simplistic lexical tool used to deny the Scriptural reality that believing God is God, includes obeying God.
Scripture consistently treats believing God as obedience to God, and the charge of ‘conflation’ is simply a way to avoid this.
To be sure, the chapter catalogues the obedient acts these all did because of their faith, and in every place, the act was a result of the belief, and was not equated with that belief.
Because Noah believed God he obeyed God building the ark. Because Abraham believed God he went out from his home. Each of these showed their faith in that they obeyed God.
Abraham is a great example, as God used him to show justification by faith. Abraham believe God, and that believing was accounted by God as righteousness, EVEN THOUGH Abraham went on to disobey God in attempting to have the "promised child" through Hagar.
So then disobedient Abraham was nonetheless justified by faith, not by works, and faith is here again shown different from obedience.
Much love!
OK, now that you've actually posted Scripture, would you like to go through it verse by verse, one verse at a time, and see if and where we might interpret things a bit differently, if we do?
I'd say the real pejorative here is in calling others "works-phobic", which patently misrepresents those who believe works will follow real faith.
Much love!
When ‘conflating’ is being used to shut down how Scripture explains that being obedient to God is believing God, it’s being used pejoratively - it's a dismissive label meant to discredit what the Text says rather than deal with it.
Good. So, 'conflating' prompts a response and 'works-phobic' prompts a response.
Now, how about discussing Romans4?