Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

[mailmandan]

Do you think Jesus is encouraging people to put his sayings into practice in Matthew 7:24 because doing so would be doing the will of the Father? If so, do you think putting his sayings into practice would include things other than believing in Jesus?

Not trying to jump down your throat or anything, I just suggest you look at those four verses I posted carefully as if read carefully it should be obvious that Jesus wants us to do things like enter in through the strait (narrow) gate, do unto others as they do unto you, not judge (lest ye be not judged), as these are the sayings he has been preaching (he says verbatim: therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock). The implication is that these sayings are the will of the Father and that we are to follow through on Jesus' words if we want to enter into the kingdom of heaven. These would be works, but if I have you right you say works don't contribute to salvation. I don't understand how Jesus can say what he says in Matthew 7 if works don't contribute to salvation, he's instructing us to do certain things. I believe we have to believe in Jesus to be saved, but Jesus says certain things are true, and if we believe in him we must naturally believe what he says is true, therefore following through on what he commands is an extension of believing in him (which I admit can be hard to grasp).

John 8:51 King James Version
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

This is a part of John's gospel where it is laid out that if you believe in Jesus you have eternal life. I don't know if I'm going to be able to put this into words, but I think if you take everything Jesus has said together in the Gospel According to John and include something like this, it is arguable to see that Jesus expects us to follow his commands if we believe in him. The one who believeth in Jesus is in a manner of speaking someone who follows his commands because he believes that Jesus told the truth. I think we are at a great loss if it is taken to mean someone who simply believes the gospel, or simply believes Jesus existed. If that is how Jesus's words are meant to be viewed in John 3 then it is leaving out believing that Jesus is Lord and has the right and station to be commanding us. Also, as an aside, how do you reconcile Jesus saying what he said in Matthew 7:21-24?

Now there is a difference between doing the will of the Father IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing the will of the Father AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

I already reconciled what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-24. We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Following the commands of Jesus is the demonstrative evidence that we believe in Him. Who is it that practices righteousness and not sin? (1 John 3:9-10) Children of God or children of the devil?

 

[mailmandan]

Yes... salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned... these are commonly touted words. Jesus speaks explicitly that only those who do the will of the Father though will enter into the kingdom of heaven. Paul is also explicit that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Hebrews 12:14 also says to follow holiness with all men, without which no man shall see the Lord. As you can see from scripture how we live our lives is a determining factor on whether or not we will be saved. We are saved by Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, but I believe it is in unison with following Jesus' commands as that is belief in Jesus, to believe he told the truth when he gave his commands.

You seem to conflate the will of the Father unto salvation (John 6:40) with the will of the Father after salvation. You also conflate faith and obedience/works which "follow" which culminates in works-righteousness.

In regard to Hebrews 12:14, are you implying that  verse teaches that if we are not "holy enough" IN ADDITION to having placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8) then we will not see God? That would imply works righteousness. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

 

[LeeLoving]

Now there is a difference between doing the will of the Father IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing the will of the Father AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

It seems that Jesus' sayings are the will of the Father to be saved as he is predicating entrance into the kingdom of heaven on doing them. This is expressed in his words (Matthew 7:21-24).

If you read carefully, John 6:40 is not the Father's will for us, it is saying it is the Father's own will to give eternal life to those that believe in Jesus.

You have an idea in your writing that is so common within Christianity that someone is saved by just "believing in Jesus", which is not what scripture bears out. Paul says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus preached righteousness on the earth when he was here, that is what belief in Jesus is in my mind. To do the righteousness he commanded and which he taught leads to entrance into the kingdom of heaven. To incorporate his teachings into your life and treat him as Lord. This is encapsulated in the idea of "believing in him": that he is Lord and that he did indeed teach what is necessary to gain eternal life. How is this eternal life provided for us? Through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Those who believe in him have their sins forgiven. This honestly seems to be what is taught in the New Testament.

This is evidenced by Paul saying that everyone will be rewarded according to their deeds, to those who persevere in welldoing, eternal life, to those who live according to unrighteousness, wrath.

 

[LeeLoving]

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

These verses seem to speak against your point:

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The author seems to be giving a severe warning not to fall short of the grace of God, by refusing him that speaks.

Warnings are a common theme in the book of Hebrews. In Hebrews 10 it is explicitly said that those who persist in willful sin will not have a sacrifice for their sin.

 

[TrustandObey]

Lying to my face and gadlighting me was spot on. Thinned skin? Let's just say I have a very low tolerance for blatant dishonesty.

Now in regard to being justified, James is not using the term to mean accounted as righteous but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

dikaioō

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

Nedsk is using the word "justified" to mean saved, that is all. It is you who is emotional and making a mountain out of a anthill.

Certain bibles use different words in place of justified in James 2:24 such as:

You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. CJB
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. NIV
Do you all see that a person is declared-righteous by works, and not by faith alone? DLNT
So you see that people are made right with God by what they do. They cannot be made right by faith alone. ERV
You see that a person receives God’s approval because of what he does, not only because of what he believes. GW
So you see, a man is saved by what he does, as well as by what he believes. TLB

There are nuances in language and you seem to be nit-picking over this issue. This is a open and recorded forum, I doubt Nedsk or anyone else would attempt to gaslight someone with so many others watching.

 

[LeeLoving]

In regard to Hebrews 12:14, are you implying that  verse teaches that if we are not "holy enough" IN ADDITION to having placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8) then we will not see God? That would imply works righteousness. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

I'm just treating the verse for what it says, it says to pursue holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. The obvious meaning is that if you don't live in a holy fashion you will not be saved. The NASB translation is bizarre. How do you pursue the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord? Faith is a gift from God and it is not us who sanctifies ourselves. You are right sanctification is being set apart. It is not us who sets ourselves apart, (I'm not entirely sure about this) but we are sanctified by God through his Spirit by the faith which we receive to believe in Jesus.

 

[rogerg]

Every mention made with sense and form of a man's works being a prerequisite to justification.

Ahh... no, it isn't. The only prerequisite to salvation is to have been chosen by God for salvation. What part of "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us', didn't you understand? Salvation is solely by God's mercy through Christ. It's actually very simple - that all is by God; nothing by man.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[Tit 3:6 KJV] 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

God grants repentance from dead works to receive His faith unto salvation.

God grants repentance from dead works as a result of, or byproduct of, salvation, not the reverse.

Salvation, justification, righteousness, grace, and faith, that begins not with repentance from dead works, is man's alone. It all ends in the grave with the pretty speeches.

No. Christ is the Savior man is not. Therefore, as Savior, everything required for those whom He had chosen to salvation, was perfectly satisfied by Him on their behalf.

Christ alone is the Savior, and man is not, because Jesus Christ alone can forgive sins of them that repent.

Only Christ forgives sins. From/by that forgiveness, they repent. True repentance is given by God to those whom He saves and is manifested in their acknowledgement of Christ as Savior.

[Luk 1:77-78 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

If Abraham were justified by works of circumcision, he hath whereof to glory.

So, Abraham were justified by works of offering up Isaac, whereof God called him Friend.

No. Circumcision isn't included in that verse. You've attempted to add a word to it that isn't there.
It is saying that none of Abraham's works could justify him. Read the following verses below closely.
It is clear that justification is by Christ alone.


[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Rom 5:9 KJV]
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Rom 8:30 KJV]
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[1Co 6:11 KJV] 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Tit 3:7 KJV]
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So, no salvation by grace through faith.

I don't understand your point. But salvation is by God's grace through Christ's faith not man's faith. Christ is the Savior man is not.

 

[Inquisitor]

Faith Alone Regeneration Theology is very much a followed narrative throughout Evangelical groups.

Universalism, which I am assuming you support is a very, very small minority.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

That is the core of what Paul wrote in his letters.

Christ alone through grace alone is a better fit and freely available to anyone who calls on His name!

I am not into Monergism.

Romans 10:13-17
For “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?
How will they preach unless they are sent?
Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

I love the idea of Universalism but I am terrified that not everyone will be saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm just treating the verse for what it says, it says to pursue holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. The obvious meaning is that if you don't live in a holy fashion you will not be saved. The NASB translation is bizarre. How do you pursue the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord? Faith is a gift from God and it is not us who sanctifies ourselves. You are right sanctification is being set apart. It is not us who sets ourselves apart, (I'm not entirely sure about this) but we are sanctified by God through his Spirit by the faith which we receive to believe in Jesus.

More to the point.

We were discussing how to be saved not how to void that gift of salvation.

It's easy to confuse separate entities on this subject of salvation.

We are blameless IN CHRIST.

We cannot sin IN CHIST.

'IN the SPIRIT' and 'IN CHRIST' are two very common phrases in Paul's letters.

Anyone would do well to understand what these phrases mean.

 

[GWH]

The post is all about vs 8-9. Try again.

Or better yet. Address a specific point about vs8-9, that you don't agree with. Thanks.

Your post said:
"Eph 2:8 is used by many Christians to preach a gospel of salvation and justification by faith alone without works; Which some say is justification by faith apart from any works that we may be doing at the time, whether good or evil. So what does the Scripture say?
Other than James 2 declaring that faith alone without works is dead, and can save no man; Eph 2 isn't talking about faith alone without works. Rather Eph2 is making the difference between the faith of God with works of grace, vs the faith of man with works to brag about.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. That not of ourselves, is that faith that is of God, and not of ourselves. And so we see the division made between the two. The same faith is not being spoken of throughout this verse of Scripture. Only that faith by grace is the gift of God, but that faith of man is by his own will alone."

Nothing about v. 9-10, as I said:
"Your post began well but would have been better if it had not cut off Eph. 2:9-10 from verse 8."

However, if you intended to include v. 9, then it would have been best not to divorce v. 8-9 from v. 10.

I say this as one who used to divorce them until I realized that was wrong for allowing antinomianism,
so now I typically cite the entire pericope of Paul: Eph. 2:8-10.

 

[mailmandan]

It seems that Jesus' sayings are the will of the Father to be saved as he is predicating entrance into the kingdom of heaven on doing them. This is expressed in his words (Matthew 7:21-24).

Only those who are already saved act on the words of Jesus, does them, puts them into practice after hearing them (Matthew 7:24) which is God's will for us after we have been saved. Becoming saved is through believing in Him (John 6:40) and is not by works. (Romans 4:5-6) So, those who will enter the kingdom (believers) are described as putting the words of Jesus into practice and building their house on the rock. In contrast with (unbelievers/make believers) who hear the words of Jesus and do not put them into practice and are described as a foolish man who built his house on sand, and it fell with a great crash.

If you read carefully, John 6:40 is not the Father's will for us, it is saying it is the Father's own will to give eternal life to those that believe in Jesus.

I read John 6:40 carefully. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Crystal clear. You are trying to "shoehorn" works "into" believes in Him, which also would include believes in self.

You have an idea in your writing that is so common within Christianity that someone is saved by just "believing in Jesus", which is not what scripture bears out.

Hmm.. Scripture says otherwise. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Believing in Jesus goes beyond merely believing that He exists but also includes trust and reliance in Jesus for salvation. Sadly, many trust in works instead.

Paul says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9, we read - Do you not know that the unrighteous (key word) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. *Notice the contrast between the unrighteous and the righteous.
In Galatians 5:21, the apostle Paul gives a similar list of sins and goes on to say those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jesus preached righteousness on the earth when he was here, that is what belief in Jesus is in my mind. To do the righteousness he commanded and which he taught leads to entrance into the kingdom of heaven. To incorporate his teachings into your life and treat him as Lord. This is encapsulated in the idea of "believing in him": that he is Lord and that he did indeed teach what is necessary to gain eternal life. How is this eternal life provided for us? Through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Those who believe in him have their sins forgiven. This honestly seems to be what is taught in the New Testament.

What you teach is basically what I was taught prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church. They basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation. They would say things like faith is not simply believing but also includes water baptism, partaking of the Lord's supper during Mass, obeying the 10 commandments, doing God's will etc.. which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness.

This is evidenced by Paul saying that everyone will be rewarded according to their deeds, to those who persevere in welldoing, eternal life, to those who live according to unrighteousness, wrath.

Rewarded according to our deeds does not mean receive eternal life based on the merits of our deeds. Now if one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[mailmandan]

These verses seem to speak against your point:

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The author seems to be giving a severe warning not to fall short of the grace of God, by refusing him that speaks.

Warnings are a common theme in the book of Hebrews. In Hebrews 10 it is explicitly said that those who persist in willful sin will not have a sacrifice for their sin.

"On the surface" those verses only seem to speak against my point. The severe warning is to not fall short of the grace of God/fail to obtain the grace of God. Children of God have been saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and have not fallen short. Those who have been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) and have not fallen short/have not failed to obtain the grace of God. Nominal Christians (make believers) fall short. Hence, the warning.

In Hebrews 10:26, to sin willfully carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

 

[mailmandan]

I'm just treating the verse for what it says, it says to pursue holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. The obvious meaning is that if you don't live in a holy fashion you will not be saved.

Since you teach salvation by works, that meaning may seem obvious to you. So, just how holy do you have to be? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "holy enough" (personal holiness) so now you shall see the Lord? That culminates in works righteousness.

The NASB translation is bizarre. How do you pursue the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord?

Self-righteousness is bizarre. Again, to be sanctified is to be "set apart, made holy" and without justification, there is no sanctification.
Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. To pursue holiness and fall short of the grace of God means you failed to obtain all of this. Hence, pursue.

Faith is a gift from God and it is not us who sanctifies ourselves. You are right sanctification is being set apart. It is not us who sets ourselves apart, (I'm not entirely sure about this) but we are sanctified by God through his Spirit by the faith which we receive to believe in Jesus.

If we are sanctified, then are we not set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ? (1 Corinthians 6:11)

 

[mailmandan]

Nedsk is using the word "justified" to mean saved, that is all.

Of course, he is and so does everyone who teaches salvation by works.

It is you who is emotional and making a mountain out of a anthill.

It blows my mind that you actually believe that.

Certain bibles use different words in place of justified in James 2:24 such as:

You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. CJB
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. NIV
Do you all see that a person is declared-righteous by works, and not by faith alone? DLNT
So you see that people are made right with God by what they do. They cannot be made right by faith alone. ERV
You see that a person receives God’s approval because of what he does, not only because of what he believes. GW
So you see, a man is saved by what he does, as well as by what he believes. TLB

The AMP version sums it up - You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith]. The NLT says - So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
Also, the TLV says - You see that a man is proved righteous by works and not by faith alone.

Saved by works is an incorrect translation which is also in contradiction to Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Elsewhere, we see saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) So, saved by works is a misinterpretation of James 2:24, unless you like contradictions.

We are justified "accounted as righteous" by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and justified "shown to be righteous" by works. (James 2:21,24) The Greek word for justified has more than one meaning, depending on the context.

The Greek word for justified is "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context of James 2:24.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

There are nuances in language and you seem to be nit-picking over this issue. This is a open and recorded forum, I doubt Nedsk or anyone else would attempt to gaslight someone with so many others watching.

Are you kidding me?

 

[Gideon300]

Every mention made with sense and form of a man's works being a prerequisite to justification.



Rom 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

God grants repentance from dead works to receive His faith unto salvation.

Salvation, justification, righteousness, grace, and faith, that begins not with repentance from dead works, is man's alone. It all ends in the grave with the pretty speeches.




Christ alone is the Savior, and man is not, because Jesus Christ alone can forgive sins of them that repent.

Rom 3:25
Jesus Christ, Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;




If Abraham were justified by works of circumcision, he hath whereof to glory.

So, Abraham were justified by works of offering up Isaac, whereof God called him Friend.




So, no justification through faith.


So, no salvation by grace through faith.

In that case, you are going to hell.

 

[Nedsk]

If "genuine faith is accompanied by good works" then James 2:24 has no purpose.

If genuine faith will always produce good works, why the warning?

Exactly

 

[Nedsk]

That is the stupidest response you could have the whole basis of my argument is on the scripture the fact that you can't delineate this and you're arguing against 2000 years of church history works is not a part of Salvation it's the outpouring of it

More to the point Protestant Christianity does not include works as part of the Salvation process I'm not I'm not arguing it you're arguing with the church over a heresy decided in the first century

Read John 3:16 there's your homework

What you believe is decidedly no part of 2000 yrs of church history. That's a lie you tell yourself.

I gave you the scripture and you ignore it. In the final analysis I don't care what you believe because your understanding of Scripture is flawed and you just ignore the stuff you don't like.

 

[Nedsk]

He needed rebuking after lying to my face then trying to gaslight me.


For starters.

That doesn't say saved by works. Your reading comprehension is low. It's why I asked you want the AND refers to but you can't think for yourself

 

[mailmandan]

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21,24) The Greek word for justified has more than one meaning, depending on the context.

The Greek word for justified is "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context of James 2:24.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

 

[Lamar]

James said justified by works and not saved by works. You contradicted yourself by saying works don't save us and James said we are saved by works.

Which is it?

Justified vs. Saved?

A person who is justified before God is saved, is this not true?

James 2:24 The Living Bible

"So you see, a man is saved by what he does, as well as by what he believes."

Are you implying the saved are not justified

or

that the justified are not saved.

It seems your theology is forcing this distinction.