Of course King Saul was not regenerated being baptized into Jesus Christ. Apples and oranges.
Much love!
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
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Much love!
Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ. [Abe was the first to satisfy the condition for salvation of "IF" by believing in God]
Thanks for your answers.
I agree with what you said about the "old man" language of Paul, except that I wouldn't rule out a metaphysical transformation. I would agree that our metaphysical transformation doesn't lead to sinlessness or to the disappearance of the flesh. There is a difference between those who have the spirit of Christ and those who don't. Romans 8:9-11Do you see it that way?
I think I know what you mean, but perhaps you would like to flesh this out? Seems like you are making a nuanced point.
I think that I will keep Christ as my advocate!
Do you not know that Jesus intercedes for His people?
AI does a decent job of explaining this.
Jesus interceding for us means He acts as our active mediator and advocate in heaven, appearing before God the Father to plead on our behalf based on His sacrifice on the cross. Seated at God's right hand, Jesus continuously secures our forgiveness, represents us, and ensures our spiritual protection and salvation, serving as a "defense lawyer".
The very fact that we need an advocate should be enough to let us know that we have not nor never will be perfected in this life.
Does that give us a license to go on sinning? Heaven forbid! But having the right man on our side lets us know that we will be found spotless before the throne of God. . .
My read is Paul never says the believer’s substance changes. He never uses ontology language & he never says the flesh disappears. The transformation he describes is covenantal & Spirit‑driven - a realm‑transfer into Christ & an indwelling by the Spirit that gives new power, new desires & a new capacity for obedience, even though the flesh remains present & active.Thanks for your answers.
Do you see it that way?
What do you make of his teaching that those in Christ have the spirit of Christ?
The NT's Trinitarian Structure Makes Loss of Salvation Impossible
It begins with the irreversible saving actions of the Triune God - the Son's justifying Holy Spirit baptism, the Father's legal declaration of righteousness in Christ & the Holy Spirit's FOREVER indwelling, sealing & guaranteeing ministry that secures the believer’s eternal life.
Scripture states that God's gifts & calling are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). What God gives, He does not take back. What God calls, He does not un‑call. What God seals, He does not un‑seal.
Loss of salvation is impossible because it requires reversing the Son’s initiating act, overturning the Father’s legal declaration & breaking of God the Holy Spirit's eternal seal.
CHRIST'S INITIATING ACT IS ONCE‑FOR‑ALL
Justification / Spirit Baptism
Lexicons define JUSTIFY as God's legal declaration of righteousness, not a process (BDAG, Thayer, Louw‑Nida). Theological dictionaries describe justification as a once‑for‑all forensic act grounded entirely in Christ's finished work (TDNT, NIDNTT, ISBE). Greek grammars note that justification appears in the aorist tense in salvation contexts (Rom 5:1 & Titus 3:7), indicating a completed, decisive act (Robertson, Wallace BDF). Bible dictionaries consistently present justification as God's legal declaration enacted at conversion - the moment Christ baptizes the believer in the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Acts 1:5, 1 Cor 12:13). It is never portrayed as probationary, partial, or reversible.
If salvation can be lost, Christ's initiating act must be undone - something no NT text teaches.
THE HOLY SPIRIT'S INDWELLING IS PERMANENT
Indwelling / Sealing
Jesus said the Spirit is given ""that He may abide with you FOREVER"" (Jn 14:16). Paul says believers are SEALED with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13 & 2 Cor 1:21-22) & SEALED unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). Lexicons define SEAL as marking ownership, authentication & securing (BDAG, Thayer, Louw‑Nida). TDNT describes the Holy Spirit as God's mark of ownership & guarantee of the future inheritance. Grammars note Paul uses the aorist tense for SEALING - a completed, once‑for‑all divine act. Bible dictionaries uniformly present SEALING as God's protective, authenticating, guaranteeing work, never temporary or dependent on human obedience.
If salvation can be lost, the Spirit must stop abiding forever, the seal must fail & the guarantee must guarantee nothing.
SALVATION IS IMMEDIATE AND COMPLETE AT THE MOMENT OF FAITH
Immediate Salvation
Lexicons define SAVE as deliver, rescue, grant life - an act performed by God (BDAG & Louw‑Nida). Theological dictionaries describe salvation as God's decisive transfer from death to life, darkness to light, Adam to Christ (TDNT & NIDNTT). Grammars note salvation verbs in conversion contexts overwhelmingly appear in the aorist tense (Eph 2:5, 8, Titus 3:5), indicating a completed event. Bible dictionaries summarize salvation as the immediate result of believing the gospel (Jn 5:24, Acts 10:43, Rom 1:16), never probationary or dependent on future performance.
If salvation can be lost, the completed act must become incomplete, the transfer must reverse & eternal life must become temporary life.
LOSS-OF-SALVATION THEOLOGY COLLAPSES UNDER ITS OWN WEIGHT
To affirm loss of salvation, one must affirm:
Christ's once‑for‑all act is reversible - God's legal declaration can be overturned - The Holy Spirit's seal can be broken - The Spirit's FOREVER indwelling is not forever - The guarantee does not guarantee - Eternal life is not eternal - Aorist‑tense salvation verbs are actually conditional - Lexicons, grammars & theological dictionaries are all wrong. No NT author teaches any of this.
To keep the categories clear:
Justification / Spirit baptism = Christ's initiating act & God’s legal declaration of the believer's eternal life
Indwelling / sealing = Holy Spirit's eternal ongoing ministry
THE GLORY OF CHRIST WHO SECURES HIS OWN
Jesus Christ is the Creator (Jn 1:3), the Redeemer who gave Himself for our sins (Gal 1:4), the Mediator between God & humanity (Heb 9:15), the One who indwells believers (Rom 8:9–11), the Sustainer who keeps us to the end (1 Cor 1:8), the righteous Judge of all (Jn 5:22), the faithful & gracious Lord who never abandons His own (2 Tim 2:13 & Heb 13:5). He is the Alpha & the Omega (Rev 22:13) & all who trust Him rest in His finished work, His present intercession & His eternal faithfulness. All praise, glory & honor belong to Him. Amen.
It begins with the irreversible saving actions of the Triune God - the Son's justifying Holy Spirit baptism, the Father's legal declaration of righteousness in Christ & the Holy Spirit's FOREVER indwelling, sealing & guaranteeing ministry that secures the believer’s eternal life.
Scripture states that God's gifts & calling are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). What God gives, He does not take back. What God calls, He does not un‑call. What God seals, He does not un‑seal.
Loss of salvation is impossible because it requires reversing the Son’s initiating act, overturning the Father’s legal declaration & breaking of God the Holy Spirit's eternal seal.
CHRIST'S INITIATING ACT IS ONCE‑FOR‑ALL
Justification / Spirit Baptism
Lexicons define JUSTIFY as God's legal declaration of righteousness, not a process (BDAG, Thayer, Louw‑Nida). Theological dictionaries describe justification as a once‑for‑all forensic act grounded entirely in Christ's finished work (TDNT, NIDNTT, ISBE). Greek grammars note that justification appears in the aorist tense in salvation contexts (Rom 5:1 & Titus 3:7), indicating a completed, decisive act (Robertson, Wallace BDF). Bible dictionaries consistently present justification as God's legal declaration enacted at conversion - the moment Christ baptizes the believer in the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Acts 1:5, 1 Cor 12:13). It is never portrayed as probationary, partial, or reversible.
If salvation can be lost, Christ's initiating act must be undone - something no NT text teaches.
THE HOLY SPIRIT'S INDWELLING IS PERMANENT
Indwelling / Sealing
Jesus said the Spirit is given ""that He may abide with you FOREVER"" (Jn 14:16). Paul says believers are SEALED with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13 & 2 Cor 1:21-22) & SEALED unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). Lexicons define SEAL as marking ownership, authentication & securing (BDAG, Thayer, Louw‑Nida). TDNT describes the Holy Spirit as God's mark of ownership & guarantee of the future inheritance. Grammars note Paul uses the aorist tense for SEALING - a completed, once‑for‑all divine act. Bible dictionaries uniformly present SEALING as God's protective, authenticating, guaranteeing work, never temporary or dependent on human obedience.
If salvation can be lost, the Spirit must stop abiding forever, the seal must fail & the guarantee must guarantee nothing.
SALVATION IS IMMEDIATE AND COMPLETE AT THE MOMENT OF FAITH
Immediate Salvation
Lexicons define SAVE as deliver, rescue, grant life - an act performed by God (BDAG & Louw‑Nida). Theological dictionaries describe salvation as God's decisive transfer from death to life, darkness to light, Adam to Christ (TDNT & NIDNTT). Grammars note salvation verbs in conversion contexts overwhelmingly appear in the aorist tense (Eph 2:5, 8, Titus 3:5), indicating a completed event. Bible dictionaries summarize salvation as the immediate result of believing the gospel (Jn 5:24, Acts 10:43, Rom 1:16), never probationary or dependent on future performance.
If salvation can be lost, the completed act must become incomplete, the transfer must reverse & eternal life must become temporary life.
LOSS-OF-SALVATION THEOLOGY COLLAPSES UNDER ITS OWN WEIGHT
To affirm loss of salvation, one must affirm:
Christ's once‑for‑all act is reversible - God's legal declaration can be overturned - The Holy Spirit's seal can be broken - The Spirit's FOREVER indwelling is not forever - The guarantee does not guarantee - Eternal life is not eternal - Aorist‑tense salvation verbs are actually conditional - Lexicons, grammars & theological dictionaries are all wrong. No NT author teaches any of this.
To keep the categories clear:
Justification / Spirit baptism = Christ's initiating act & God’s legal declaration of the believer's eternal life
Indwelling / sealing = Holy Spirit's eternal ongoing ministry
THE GLORY OF CHRIST WHO SECURES HIS OWN
Jesus Christ is the Creator (Jn 1:3), the Redeemer who gave Himself for our sins (Gal 1:4), the Mediator between God & humanity (Heb 9:15), the One who indwells believers (Rom 8:9–11), the Sustainer who keeps us to the end (1 Cor 1:8), the righteous Judge of all (Jn 5:22), the faithful & gracious Lord who never abandons His own (2 Tim 2:13 & Heb 13:5). He is the Alpha & the Omega (Rev 22:13) & all who trust Him rest in His finished work, His present intercession & His eternal faithfulness. All praise, glory & honor belong to Him. Amen.
Nicely drafted but basic Faith-Alone, Monergistic, OSAS. Some agree, some don't. 500 years of theological disagreements continues...
I appreciate the comment, but labels don't address the argument. Which part of the Son's initiating act, the Father’s legal declaration, or the Spirit's forever sealing do you believe can be reversed & on what textual basis?
The textual basis that's been discussed here for almost a year and in theology for centuries. Do you think there was anything new in what you wrote and that none of those points have been or are no longer debated?
While these subjects have been debated for years, some believers are hearing the discussion for the first time. Some need the space to work it out for themselves.
Then they've just read once again that there are other views to consider - long held and well established views that disagree with what was just posted.
I understand the history, but I'm asking something very specific & textual. Debate doesn't answer the question - Scripture does.
So again: which of the three divine actions does the NT present as reversible & where?
Christ's initiating act - His justifying Spirit baptism
The Father's legal declaration - His verdict of righteousness
The Holy Spirit's sealing - His forever indwelling & guaranteeing work
Pointing to centuries of discussion doesn't identify a single NT text. Which one of these does Scripture say God reverses?
Yes and the Lord advocates for people for people to not just believe what the Lord says, but to actually walk in agreement with Him.
Do you not know that grace does not cover people who live in sin?
Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Not for those that refuse to repent and stop living in sin.
Those doing such are turned over to a reprobate mind by the Lord.
More like 500 years of cherry picking the scriptures and embracing greasy grace
I wasn't going to get into this, but you asked:
Dictionaries like TDNT, again, help define words through historical use. Please cite the page and quote the specific portion of TDNT that says Justification is non-reversible or cannot be abandoned.
Please explain how the aorist tense makes Justification non-reversible.
Please explain how any of this reference material proves Justification is not probationary, partial, or reversible.
Assuming this reference material never portrays Justification as probationary, partial or reversible, which you have not proven, why does this mean Justification is not probationary, partial, or reversible?
Please prove no NT text teaches salvation can be lost.
I said your post was nicely drafted, but essentially standard Faith-Alone fare. I didn't say your post proves anything or does not jump to unproven theological conclusions. In fact, IMO, it does just that.
All you've really done is make the usual bold statements Faith Alone Theology normally makes, and left yourself a tremendous amount of work to prove them.
It's not up to me or to any of us to disprove what you haven't proven.
Lexicons define words - they don't teach theology.
Dictionaries like TDNT, again, help define words through historical use. Please cite the page and quote the specific portion of TDNT that says Justification is non-reversible or cannot be abandoned.
Please explain how the aorist tense makes Justification non-reversible.
Please explain how any of this reference material proves Justification is not probationary, partial, or reversible.
Assuming this reference material never portrays Justification as probationary, partial or reversible, which you have not proven, why does this mean Justification is not probationary, partial, or reversible?
Please prove no NT text teaches salvation can be lost.
I said your post was nicely drafted, but essentially standard Faith-Alone fare. I didn't say your post proves anything or does not jump to unproven theological conclusions. In fact, IMO, it does just that.
All you've really done is make the usual bold statements Faith Alone Theology normally makes, and left yourself a tremendous amount of work to prove them.
It's not up to me or to any of us to disprove what you haven't proven.
Perhaps you are unaware of Romans 8:28-30 where Paul draws an unbroken line from "foreknew" to "glorified" such that all those whom he justified will be glorified. If Paul is right, and he is, there are no exceptions. Justification is not probationary, partial, or reversible. If it were, then Paul's assertion would be untrue.
The logic of Paul's assertion goes like this.
THE CALLED
Foreknew => Predestined
Predestined => Called
Called => Justified
Justified => Glorified
He speaks of the entire salvation arc as a single, completed divine act.
I am familiar with it. It's in the context of God's Prothesis Rom8:28 - His Plan is completed and intact. What we do does not change His Plan. If we want to be and remain a part of it, we do what He says under His grace through faith-obedience.