Loss of salvation???

[studier]

If salvation can be lost, the NT must show God reversing one of these divine actions-Christ un‑baptizing, the Father un‑declaring, or the Spirit un‑sealing.

Right back to the language of warnings against withdrawal and conditional statements concerning enduring until the end.

Nothing requires the Word to teach what any of us say it must in the way we say it must.

Take a read of TDNT since you quoted it. Note an emphasis on being justified at the end. Compare this to the fact that your attempts at using the aorist for completion meaning forever is simply error. If you need a copy, I'll try to copy and paste it for you, but just the section covering the NC is lengthy.

 

[studier]

It's not simply those who love God, but also those who are called according to His purpose. Since we love God in response to God's love, those who love God are loved by God. And the exercise of that love is seen in being called, predestined, etc. What comes after being called according to His purposes is a recitation of His purposes; in other words, after God has set His affection upon an individual.

this Scripture specifically states something about their love for God. it will go on to speak of His love for them. it is also preceded by an IF statement that assumes they suffer together with Christ so they can be glorified together with Him as heirs - as God's children, which is not unlike the section of Hebrews10 that speaks of withdrawal.

you'd go a long way if you can prove that no one can walk away from loving God and if you can explain what Scripture teaches about those who love God when it uses such language.

 

[Cameron143]

this Scripture specifically states something about their love for God. it will go on to speak of His love for them. it is also preceded by an IF statement that assumes they suffer together with Christ so they can be glorified together with Him as heirs - as God's children, which is not unlike the section of Hebrews10 that speaks of withdrawal.

you'd go a long way if you can prove that no one can walk away from loving God and if you can explain what Scripture teaches about those who love God when it uses such language.

Use your whole Bible.

If we love God because He first loved us, all who love God are loved by God.

If we are called, predestined, justified, etc, we are in Christ.

If we are in Christ, nothing can separate us from love of God.

 

[Roger316]

We all know this is about permanence, OSAS, Eternal Security, correct?

Of course. The Romans 8 passage speaks directly and explicitly to the issue.

It's no mystery when Justification, Sealing, etc. are put forth as argument for OSAS.

Correction, I never argue for OSAS because I reject the premise that salvation is a single event.

Did you see my questions about withdrawal and abandonment in regard to this being irreversible?

No. But I would have expected a rebuttal of my interpretation of Romans 8, where Paul unmistakably draws a straight, unbroken line from "foreknown" to "glorified."

Certainly those who love God (present active participle - not aorist - not one time in the past) can rely upon the chain of what God says He has established in His Prothesis and prepared for those who love Him (present active participle - not aorist - not one time in the past) (as Paul also says).

Certainly you can see what's actually being discussed here, correct?

Why is that highlighted phrase above being skipped over and Rom8:30 being presented in isolation from it?

I haven't skipped over the phrase, "those who love God" because, in my view, "to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" form a complete predicate. These are not ideas to be considered in isolation; They form one complete thought.

In Romans 8:30, Paul’s use of the verb “called” can be understood as functioning like a pro‑predicate, because it does more than introduce a new action in the salvation sequence—it refers back to and encapsulates the entire predicate of verse 28. In 8:28 Paul has already defined God’s calling as the outworking of His purpose toward those who love Him, a purpose that includes foreknowing and predestining them to be conformed to Christ. When Paul then begins the chain in 8:30 with “those He called,” the verb “called” does not merely denote the act of summoning; it stands in for the whole complex predicate previously described: God’s purposeful, effectual action toward His people. In linguistic terms, this is analogous to a pro‑predicate, where a single lexical item functions as a shorthand reference to a fuller predicate already established in the discourse. Paul’s rhetoric depends on this compression: the chain works only because “called” carries the weight of the prior theological predicate rather than introducing a new, isolated event.

 

[FlyingDove]

Right back to the language of warnings against withdrawal and conditional statements concerning enduring until the end.

Nothing requires the Word to teach what any of us say it must in the way we say it must.

Take a read of TDNT since you quoted it. Note an emphasis on being justified at the end. Compare this to the fact that your attempts at using the aorist for completion meaning forever is simply error. If you need a copy, I'll try to copy and paste it for you, but just the section covering the NC is lengthy.

I've repeatedly asked you for textual support for your objection. It's ironic that you dismissed lexicons and TDNT earlier by saying, They don't teach theology, yet now you try to import TDNT as doctrinal support. TDNT describes historical usage & semantic range, not a doctrine of reversible justification.

Warnings are not reversals. TDNT is not a reversal. So we're back to the actual issue: the NT text.

If salvation can be lost, the NT must show God reversing one of His own saving actions - Christ un‑baptizing, the Father un‑declaring, or the Spirit un‑sealing & your continued deflection only underscores that you can't provide any NT textual support.

 

[Roger316]

those who love God are the group. as long as they love God they are the group. the structure of the language is absolutely clear that the chain applies to those who love God. in fact the entire chain is the basis for Paul's statement about knowing all things work together for good for those who love God. there is no chain for those who do not love God. the participle is present active and not some momentary event. we're right back to having to prove once justified always justified which is simply OSAS.

Since Paul traces an unbroken line from foreknown to glorified, it is inevitable that the entire group will continue to love God. If someone decides to stop loving God, then one of two things is possible: 1) they never were called according to his purpose or 2) give them time and they will.

 

[JayWalker]

Do you always assume things that you know nothing about?

Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Reject what the Lord says in His Word at your own peril.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Reject what the Lord says in His Word at your own peril.

Didn't you say that you were living with your girlfriend?

 

[Inquisitor]

Didn't you say that you were living with your girlfriend?

God is sovereign, fact.

These days I don't believe that we should have any doubt that a Christian can wander from the Lord.

The increasing pull of the world and especially in technology is far too distracting for younger Christians.

Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all men and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Hebrews 6:4–6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift,
and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age
to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance…

Hebrews 10:26–27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains
a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment…

2 Peter 2:20–21
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first…

John 15:5–6
I am the vine; you are the branches… If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers;
and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to
deceitful spirits and teachings of demons…

Matthew 24:10–13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another… But the one who endures
to the end will be saved.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[Cameron143]

God is sovereign, fact.

These days I don't believe that we should have any doubt that a Christian can wander from the Lord.

The increasing pull of the world and especially in technology is far too distracting for younger Christians.

Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all men and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Hebrews 6:4–6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift,
and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age
to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance…

Hebrews 10:26–27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains
a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment…

2 Peter 2:20–21
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first…

John 15:5–6
I am the vine; you are the branches… If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers;
and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to
deceitful spirits and teachings of demons…

Matthew 24:10–13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another… But the one who endures
to the end will be saved.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

I disagree, but not my point. It seems hypocritical to me for someone openly living in sin to quote a scripture concerning ongoing sin.

 

[Inquisitor]

I disagree, but not my point. It seems hypocritical to me for someone openly living in sin to quote a scripture concerning ongoing sin.

I thought you believed in once saved always saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

I disagree, but not my point. It seems hypocritical to me for someone openly living in sin to quote a scripture concerning ongoing sin.

Coffee time.

Off to the coffee shop to feed my fifty year addiction.

 

[studier]

Use your whole Bible.

If we love God because He first loved us, all who love God are loved by God.

If we are called, predestined, justified, etc, we are in Christ.

If we are in Christ, nothing can separate us from love of God.

It's because I use my Bible that I know you are stating one side of the monergistic story where our continued love for God which He defines very clearly is set aside just like it was set aside when these verses were brought up by @Roger316 as I recall and then actually explained away by @FlyingDove in more misrepresentation of the actual Text.

We do respond to Him. The question being discussed is whether or not some may willingly stop responding to Him and withdraw from Him as His story of history has shown and as some of us think His Word warns us about.

 

[studier]

Since Paul traces an unbroken line from foreknown to glorified, it is inevitable that the entire group will continue to love God. If someone decides to stop loving God, then one of two things is possible: 1) they never were called according to his purpose or 2) give them time and they will.

That's simply the lens and logic of OSAS theology. There is nothing in that chain that says someone cannot exit the group by no longer loving God. The Plan and chain is intact for whoever is loving God. The Plan and the group remain intact even if members of the group decide to leave.

 

[studier]

I've repeatedly asked you for textual support for your objection. It's ironic that you dismissed lexicons and TDNT earlier by saying, They don't teach theology, yet now you try to import TDNT as doctrinal support. TDNT describes historical usage & semantic range, not a doctrine of reversible justification.

Warnings are not reversals. TDNT is not a reversal. So we're back to the actual issue: the NT text.

If salvation can be lost, the NT must show God reversing one of His own saving actions - Christ un‑baptizing, the Father un‑declaring, or the Spirit un‑sealing & your continued deflection only underscores that you can't provide any NT textual support.

I didn't say I get theology from TDNT. I said you might find it interesting if you actually read what you reference because it speaks of justification more broadly than you do, as does the Word of God from which it drew its observations.

Maybe at some point you'll realize that I've read and learned from Wallace and I've owned and read things like TDNT for about 3 decades. They didn't just gather dust when I used them in book form. My Wallace grammar was falling apart from use. I can see when you're misusing them.

Also, we've been discussing some Scriptures in some depth and finding no agreement. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I haven't supported my views.

Your demand that the Word speaks as you want is the deflection. Conditions and warnings and historic examples is the language of the Text on this matter as is grammar that some like yourself are misusing.

 

[Cameron143]

I thought you believed in once saved always saved.

I do.

 

[Cameron143]

It's because I use my Bible that I know you are stating one side of the monergistic story where our continued love for God which He defines very clearly is set aside just like it was set aside when these verses were brought up by @Roger316 as I recall and then actually explained away by @FlyingDove in more misrepresentation of the actual Text.

We do respond to Him. The question being discussed is whether or not some may willingly stop responding to Him and withdraw from Him as His story of history has shown and as some of us think His Word warns us about.

People can and do withdraw from God. Some do so permanently, while others do so temporarily. God, however, is never out of relationship with someone who is in Christ Jesus. He never withdraws...He never leaves or forsakes such a one.

Perhaps understanding what it is to be in Christ Jesus is important.

 

[studier]

People can and do withdraw from God. Some do so permanently, while others do so temporarily. God, however, is never out of relationship with someone who is in Christ Jesus. He never withdraws...He never leaves or forsakes such a one.

Perhaps understanding what it is to be in Christ Jesus is important.

I agree He is always faithful and that being in Christ and remaining in Christ is crucial to the topic under discussion.

 

[Roger316]

That's simply the lens and logic of OSAS theology. There is nothing in that chain that says someone cannot exit the group by no longer loving God. The Plan and chain is intact for whoever is loving God. The Plan and the group remain intact even if members of the group decide to leave.

On the contrary, since Paul draws an unbroken line from foreknown to glorification, and since he argues that those who are called were predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, then your point of view finds no support. It is not true that their status is indefinite. The chain can not be broken.

Paul is not describing a category that people may enter or exit at will; he is describing particular persons whom God Himself has acted upon. The grammar of Romans 8:29–30 makes this unavoidable. Each verb—foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified—has a concrete, personal object: whom He foreknew, these He also predestined; whom He predestined, these He also called, and so on. Paul does not speak of an open class defined by human choice but of a determinate set of individuals bound together by God’s own actions. The repeated “whom… these also” structure eliminates the idea of a fluid group identity; it asserts an unbroken chain applied to the same persons from start to finish. In Paul’s argument, the group is not defined by human self-placement but by divine initiative, and therefore its membership is fixed, not contingent.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree He is always faithful and that being in Christ and remaining in Christ is crucial to the topic under discussion.

Do you equate abiding in Christ with being in Christ?