Um...what? Job never curses his mother. That interpretation is a perversion of the text.
The book of Job
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Um...what? Job never curses his mother. That interpretation is a perversion of the text.
Job said these things because that is what Job in particular was experiencing during his ordeal. Job was undergoing a test, remember? The apostle James enlightens us stating that Job endured. Some of the worst things imaginable were thrown at Job, and you know what? He kept the faith. That's the story.
Job said these things because they are true. That is his testimony, which is supported by the context of the story, by the plot of the story, and by the multiple affirmations from God.
Interestingly, you have cherry-picked these verses and tried to pit them against each other to make your case. But it seems you are trying to create conflict where there is no real conflict.
Additionally, you still did not provide any verse which makes the claim that Elihu accuses Job of saying. Job never says "My righteousness is more than God's". You did not provide that verse because that verse does not exist.
Job 1:1 (Author)
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 (God)
Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 (God)
Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Those are testimonies to Job's character.
Now let's look at Job's character in action.
Job 1:21 (Job)
Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 1:9-10 (Job)
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
Job 9:1-15 (Job)
I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
If he [man] will contend with Him [God], he cannot answer Him one of a thousand.
He [God] is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against Him, and hath prospered?
Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in His anger.
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
Lo, He goeth by me, and I see Him not: He passeth on also, but I perceive Him not.
Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
Despite what Job is suffering "without cause" Job still knows his place before God. Why? Because he fears God and shuns evil as is made abundantly clear in the text.
satan did not move "God against Job". satan moved against Job (Job 2:7). There was no cause on Job's part ... there was no cause on God's part ... satan just did what he did because he is satan. Just like when satan deceived Eve ... no cause other than satan being satan.
God told satan Job was a perfect and upright man who eschewed evil. satan "tested" God's words concerning Job.tttallison said:
first of all, the verse states Will he [leviathan] make a covenant with thee [Job]? ... the verse does not ask "will you make a covenant with leviathan".tttallison said:
I dealt with this verse here. I told you then and I reiterate:
In vs 4, God asked "will he (leviathan) make a covenant with thee (Job)?"
Can you make covenant with a wild creature, tttallison? We have domesticated animals as pets, but they still react according to their instincts in certain circumstances. As much as we love our pets (dogs or cats, etc.), they will still react as animals when threatened.
Job could not covenant with leviathan to the point where leviathan would serve Job. leviathan could never be trained like his oxen plowing his fields (Job 1:14).
since this did not occur, the question is conjecture.tttallison said:
Job already walked with God (Job 1:1).tttallison said:
did you even consider for a second the verses from 1 Peter 5 I showed you in Post 314?tttallison said:
Satan walks about as a roaring lion seeking to devour. Some folks fold and satan ends up getting his teeth into them. Others stand steadfast in faith, like Job. Eventually satan leaves (James 4:7). satan seeking to devour is just satan being satan.
You claim "we can't say definitively" that Job sinned "with his heart" ... but that is what you have been claiming over many pages in this thread.
How about you just acknowledge that satan is who he is and he is going to afflict as many folks as he can, whether they "deserve" it or not. The only way to overcome when satan comes around is to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might ... stand and withstand steadfast in faith ... and know that if/when satan comes around, it might not be because of any sin on your part which "would account for God's cause for allowing [your] tribulation". sometimes it's just satan being satan.
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Agree. Such good input here.
The only thing I would maybe put a finer point on is that while it was satan that did the stealing/killing/destorying, it is God who allowed it. satan would not have been able to do any of those things had not God made it possible.
That said, it opens up a very important question about this story, I believe. Why would God allow this kind of suffering to befall Job? My conclusion on this has been that, for one, it proves satan to be the liar he is, particularly when he claims Job will curse God if he suffers. Job suffers, but Job never curses God. Ever. God let Job's ordeal play out, and it proves that satan's claim was profoundly false.
This, to me, is also a way for God to show everyone in the story --- as well as anyone reading the story --- what God's connection with his creation is like. It's not transactional, it's relational. Job is wrought most, not because he lost his possessions and health, but because his connection with God was suspended for a time without any explanation. In the midst of this separation, Job consistently cries out to God wanting his relationship with God to be restored. In the end, Job receives the answer to his prayers when God Himself appears to him.
I believe if you had asked any of these four ladies they would differ with you. Sarah, Rachel, Hannah, and Elizabeth had been barren at one time. Job cursed the day his mother gave birth.
Deu 27:16 Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
I believe if one does a thorough study of the book of Lamentations they will have a better insight into the book of Job. Almost everything that is in the book of Job is in Lamentations. Jeremiah cursed his day of birth as well, but that is found in Jeremiah 20:14.
The two twin brothers, Jacob and Esau are portrayed in these two books, Jacob in Lamentations, and Esau in Job. The daughter of Zion, and the daughter of Edom.
Lam 4:21-22 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.
Reread what you just wrote.
Job cursed the **day**. You just wrote that very thing. Job did not curse his mother.
You're confusing the subjects.
As far as I'm concerned, God stayed satan from killing Job and if God had not done that, satan would have killed Job.
the fact that we are alive after the first sin we commit shows God's magnanimous grace and mercy toward mankind.christophernyc said:
agree 100% that satan is a liar.
agree that Job sought out God, but I do believe God was watching over Job the whole time. Job was just unable to discern God's presence.christophernyc said:
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Yes, totally agree. I should have added God allowed Job to suffer *with conditions*. The first time was satan could not touch his flesh, the second time was satan could not kill him.
Absolutely. While Job’s connection with God was suspended, I wholeheartedly agree with you that God was watching over Job throughout his entire ordeal. No doubt. I think that was part of the test for Job, too. How will Job respond if God is *seemingly* absent from him? Well, we can read the story and see that Job presses in to God, however unorthodox his approach may seem to others. He obviously keeps the faith, does not curse God, passes the test, and is rewarded by seeing God with his own eyes, among other things.
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
Job is the vineyard and God took away the hedge. As it was with Israel so it was with Job, for they both had the hedge removed, because of sin.
Both Job and Israel were the apple of God’s eye.
Israel is God’s elect, his chosen, yet Israel fell from grace. Is Job greater than Israel?
Please show us where it is written that the hedge around Job was taken away because of Job committing sin. Where does it say that? What “wild grapes” was Job bringing forth in his life to incur his ordeal? Where is this indicated in the text?
His pride.
Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.
Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
Compare the speech of Moses with Job.
Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Moses gives honour to our Lord, and Job gives honour to Job.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
Job suffered through much anguish and distress. Job was in pain ... couldn't sleep ... couldn't eat ... was feverish ... how long did he suffer?
Scripture doesn't tell us explicitly. All we know is that it was longer than a week because Job 2:13 tells us his friends sat down with Job for 7 days/7 nights before any of them spoke.
How long did it take for Job's friends to hear about his distress, make plans to travel to him, then travel time to get to Job before they sat for a week with him?
How many days passed as they discussed what was going on (from Job 3 through Job 37)?
Did his friends come and they all sat and hashed it out in one night session?
We don't know and to guess would be futile.
During this time, Job and all his friends said things about God that fell short of Who God is due to the finite trying to explain to infinite ... as well as falling short in their explanation of God's ways due to the the ignorant trying to explain the omniscient.
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Read the beginning of chapter 41.
Job 41:1-4
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
In chapter 41 God is talking about leviathan. That is who God is describing, not Job.
You confusing the subjects again.
As for the Moses / Job comparison, once again you are conflating two different contexts.
By the way, Job does glorify God above himself in his speeches, as previously pointed out in post #322. Read chapter 9 again, for example.
Uh, no there will be no second chances for satan.
The old devil's goose is cooked, he's done.
No, because there is no salvation offered for fallen angels at all.
Jesus went to the Cross for man kind, not for fallen angels.
They will all spend eternity in hell.
Then why does God deal patiently and peacefully with satan, instead of condemning him, forbidding him, and casting him out of his presence?
After satan makes his case, God doesn't scoff at him, but just goes 'Okay, let's see if you're right', and gives him power to hurt His chosen one, even though God already knew the answer.
Even once he's humbled; Job, who's never seen God, does not renounce Gods sovergnty or His salvation, even as he goes through a phase of self-righteousness against God.
Satan, who sees God face-to-face, refuses to beleive or humble himself to God, despite directly witnessing his accusations fall flat against the fulfillment of His word twice. And that with everything he's done in his own power to make his accusations stand.
Would you say God is making satan to sin, or is satan sinning by himself?
And if satan would have admitted defeat, kneeled over and begged God for mercy, what do you think God would have done?
You're delusional if you have fallen for satan's lie that God is going to save satan and his demons and bring them in to Heaven one day.
You should notice God's Word teaches Jesus went to the Cross of the sins of men not devils.
Are we both agreeing that God is talking about leviathan, the serpent, who is king over all the children of pride, and it is Job who God is talking to.
I am not confusing subjects. Both Moses and Job were speaking of how great their words were. The difference was Moses was attributing those great words to his great God, while Job was attributing his great words to how great Job was.
Are you saying Jobs good words about God make up for his bad words against God. I guess you could say Job honored God with his lips, but his heart was far from God.