Keep in mind there is a lot of flesh out there. People will be people. Doesn’t mean there isn’t a move of God happening. Wasn’t the Azusa street started by a working man in CA who came home and prayed every day. God moved in this man’s life in a miraculously big way. Every revival was started this way - fervent, prolonged prayer
Is cessation an observation or theology?
- Thread starter Lamar
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No, you are thinking of the revival that started in New York. The Azuza Street revival, so called, was started by a one eyed, Afro-American preacher. He had recently imbibed the doctrine that the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, was speaking in tongues. And that is what he preached and admonished Christians to seek after. Unfortunately, He spent his time in the meetings with his head in a box while the meetings were bedlam.
So he got the baptism of the Hoky Spirit? I’ve only heard good things about it. Are you from Australia?
No, he didn't initially 'get' the baptism, it came later. Unfortunately, some recollections of the events are sugar coated by some commentators, the truth is much more raw. Yes, I am in Australia.
Forgive my ignorance. I had to Google Jett Lawrence. You learn something new every day!
Paul said that tongues was a sign gift.
Actually... a sign to the unbeliever. Why?
1 Corinthians 14:20-22
Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children.
In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
Today, no such thing is possible.
For it was to be a sign to the Jewish unbelievers. "This people."
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”
It was a sign as the plagues were when presented to Pharaoh.
Pharaoh refused to listen and would not believe.
Many get that part wrong.
Manic laughter is not supernatural but a sign of a frenzied state of emotions. It can also be Pseudobulbar affect or simply fake.
Is it physical? Yes.
Is it a manifestation? Yes.
Is it supernatural? No.
No, the Pentecostal Movement is simply a man made fraud.
It is not supernatural, it is not demonic, it is just a theology based on lies. Much like Mormonism.
Does Satan approve of this movement? Certainly.
But the Pentecostals do not need his help, they are doing a great job on their own.
Yes, there was much that was not questionable but straight out demonic. However, there was also much that was genuine. I know quite a bit about counterfeit manifestations that purport to be of God. Our small fellowship thoroughly investigated the so-called "Toronto Blessing" in the 199O's. It was 100 % false.
That does mean that every manifestation that is not of human origin is demonic. And that is the mistake too many make. The great Welsh revival started not long before Azusa Street. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was at the centre of the revival. There were some false signs, but nothing like Azusa. Jesse Penn-Lewis was a reporter for a Christian newspaper and wrote "War on the Saints" as a result of her observations.
As I said previously, something has to be real before you can counterfeit it.
You are basing your theology on unsubstantiated claims of modern physical supernatural manifestations being on par with New Testament miracles.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are documented cases of missionaries speaking a language that they did not learn. There are also two distinct reasons for tongues. The first is for the work of witnessing. The second is personal edification. Personally, I see no reason for people to pray in tongues in a meeting. And if someone does speak in tongues, there needs to be an interpreter.
I was a member of a Pentecostal church for 5 years. I was youth leader. Some of what I heard and witnessed was obviously not of God. For the worst of reasons I did not want to rock the boat. As it happened, God moved me on anyway.
The gifts will cease when the perfect comes. What we see now is far from perfect. Our knowledge is not complete. Lord Jesus is building His church and she will be without spot or wrinkle. We are not there yet.
What is your point.
Pentecostals are not counterfeiting modern miracles, they are counterfeiting the miracles of the New Testament.
What do you want? A signed statement written in my blood? I've told you my real experiences. Go ahead, call me a liar.
Whatever Paul meant as "the perfect", it most surely has come.
This would explain why tongues have ceased.
And you deny that God is doing miracles right now. God does not change. There were many miracles in the Old Testament. But for some inexplicable reason, God no longer does the miraculous? I'll tell you the reason why so many fail to have miracles. It is doubt and unbelief. Lord Jesus did miracles all over Israel, but few in Nazareth. Doubt and unbelief again.
You are not a liar, just emotional and naive.
As are many caught up in the Pentecostal movement.
I was not saved in a Pentecostal church. It was 3 years before I came around to the view that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was for believers now. I considered that it was only for emotional people. I was as hard as nails and I viewed emotion as a weakness. Life had led me to be that way. I was healed miraculously within a few weeks of being born again. That did not incline me to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I'm still not overly emotional. I am much freer now as I should be after 50 plus years in the Lord.
If you are open minded, which I doubt, you could read "The Revival in Indonesia", by Kurt E Koch. He was an expert on the occult. He heard about the Indonesia, especially Timor, revival in the 1960's and went to investigate. He examined the reported miracles. His conclusion was that the miracles were genuine.
"Tongues" always were earthly languages in scripture.
"which were nothing but gibberish."
Yes, this has been proven by linguists, that it is ecstatic speech and does present with any of the markers of a "language."
It is amazing to me that it still persists in this day and age, speaks to the power of deception, I guess.